What's up with 3 power adders?

[ChevyKiller]

A got a couple emails from friends asking what was the deal with all the 'bad luck' I have had and wanted to try to give some tech info in the process of what I've found the hard way over the last 2 years. I actually didn't have that much 'bad luck' just more an expensive learning curve...

From the beginning, I wanted to do something no one has done - I wanted to have a true DD 9 sec S197. Tall order, I know, but I figured it could be done. (still think so)

My first attempt was on the vortech. I never 'blew up' the vortech and at 14 psi and below, the car was worked like a charm. Had I been satisfied with that, I would have never made any changes. I could not keep a tensioner on the car no matter what after 14 psi. Even when I had an unbreakable tensioner, it would then just rip the pulley right off at the bolt. The problem was directly due to my having a 4 speed AOD with no lock-up. Because the trans free spun, it was too much of a shock for the design of the vortech serpentine. I may have been able to overcome the problem by switching to a 6 speed , but I honestly was hooked on te AOD from day 1 and wanted to make it work.

I opted to scrap the vortech and go for a Powerhouse Turbo system. I wanted to elliminate the belt issues altogether. I blew a motor that was due to tapping a piston from a bad set of heads and that was bad luck and then I ran into the true trouble with turbos (for what I was doing)

Getting the car to run 9's on the 76mm blow-through set-up was not a problem at all. If I wanted to have a smokin' fast track car, I was there and could have just dialed it in. The truth was the car was NEVER going to be streetable as a 9 sec car. The heat issues and driveability were never ending. Fix this, and this would become a problem. Cool intake temps down and timing was an issue. Fix timing, and IAT's were ridiculous. The construction of all the turbo kits out there also made it very diffcult for any kind of decent cooling mock-ups (on a complete street car) without cutting up and shaving down the car which I never wanted to do.

I know there are some fast turbo kits out there as seen by Dyno Joe, Mike Schropp, and others, but believe me, if they are running 9 sec power, they are having a hell of a time with streetability and heat. I not only wanted the car to run 9's, I wanted to be able to drive the car 250 miles to do it if I wanted with the a/c and radio playing. Not saying you 'can't' do it on a turbo kit, just that I was not able to do it and wasn't going to be able to do it inthe near future.

Thus the change to the KB. Only because KB has worked out some tensioner issues with me and are confident they can keep the tensioner, pulley, and belt on with my trans, I am trying this last route to make my idea happen. If it doesn't, no more trying - I'll keep the KB at 15 psi and have a great street/strip car and have fun. This is definitely my last hoorah at gettin' er' done.

The personal satisfaction will be great if I can accomplish this feat and that's what keeps me going. I'd love to drive to an event in a REAL DD street car and lay down mid 9's and DRIVE home. Not just 'street legal' but a 'street car'. May never happen, but I'm sure trying...lol

This is why my car seems 'forever broken'. The moral of the tech part of this is to set a reasonable goal that has been tried and proven and stick to it or be prepared to spend enough to own several stangs...

If you think my goal is easy, just try to find one doing it. I've always thought a 9 sec trailer car is just another 9 sec car. But a 9 sec true street car is a sight to behold....

 

[psfracer]

I have the same goal.......sort of:

I want to be able to drive to the track, Shaker 1000 system and all, with DR's, no changes except for tune and 104 gas (for insurance) and run 10's. No trailer, no slicks, full interior, and be able to drive to Vegas and back without thinking twice. In essence, a reliable race car---if there is such a thing. I think Don has come very close. If he had a bar, he would be there.

 

[qwkcoupe]

I got to give it to you to have patience to deal with all of this. I kinda like to do things once, which means as you can tell from my sig, I'm slow to start.

I think the only thing I would have done was had all of that powerhouse turbo stainless steel pipe ceramic coated, as well turbo blankets. This would hold even more heat in the turbos, and let you never worry about belt issues. The only thought I have about the timming, IAT, A/F issues is I think the best most consistent charge cooling is air to water which none of our turbo kits come with.

I think the KB 2.8L is phoenominal product and is very efficient, (IS KB ACTUALY A WHIPPLE BLOWER??) so I am with you 100% cheering you on and want to watch out how your belt issues go. I would study the GT500 KB 2.8L high pressure and I will go re-read the 5.0 mag article with the 800+HP RWHP results.

 

[lostsoul]

Dont worry CK.. It only took one power adder and one Bad tuner to put my car on Vacation for over a year. If I speed shift my honda fast enought I can almost get the same feeling of speeeeeed. . . . sort of

 

[ZmanM3]

I'm just waiting to see what the new KB can do Hopefully it will not turn into another and you will be in the 9'S with plenty video to post!

 

[Geos05GTvert]

Good luck on your quest. I have a similar quest but mine is to run 10's at the track and drive to and from the track. I'm going to try this with a 67mm turbo not a 76. The power house car ran 10.29 a couple of months ago? Why not just change the tune before you go home and make it streetable again? Did you ever consider mulitple tunes and or a nitrous kit? I think the only S197's right now running 9's are dual power adder's. Why not have a daily driver tune of 13PSI and a full out race tune of 20psi or whatever and juice to make sure you get that 9sec run. Or 13PSI daily driver and a shot of the juice? Just some thoughts. It sounds like you just want all the power there when you want it and thats that.

I would think a T/S with that much power on the street as a DD with all that power always on is going to be dangerous and not very street friendly?

Tell us how's your quest comming? IS the KB installed on your new SB? have you tested it yet at the track? How close are you to realizing your goals?

-a Powerhouse Turbo system.

Getting the car to run 9's on the 76mm blow-through set-up was not a problem at all. If I wanted to have a smokin' fast track car, I was there and could have just dialed it in. The truth was the car was NEVER going to be streetable as a 9 sec car. The heat issues and driveability were never ending. Fix this, and this would become a problem. Cool intake temps down and timing was an issue. Fix timing, and IAT's were ridiculous. The construction of all the turbo kits out there also made it very diffcult for any kind of decent cooling mock-ups (on a complete street car) without cutting up and shaving down the car which I never wanted to do.

I know there are some fast turbo kits out there as seen by Dyno Joe, Mike Schropp, and others, but believe me, if they are running 9 sec power, they are having a hell of a time with streetability and heat. I not only wanted the car to run 9's, I wanted to be able to drive the car 250 miles to do it if I wanted with the a/c and radio playing. Not saying you 'can't' do it on a turbo kit, just that I was not able to do it and wasn't going to be able to do it inthe near future.

Thus the change to the KB. Only because KB has worked out some tensioner issues with me and are confident they can keep the tensioner, pulley, and belt on with my trans, I am trying this last route to make my idea happen. If it doesn't, no more trying - I'll keep the KB at 15 psi and have a great street/strip car and have fun. This is definitely my last hoorah at gettin' er' done.

The personal satisfaction will be great if I can accomplish this feat and that's what keeps me going. I'd love to drive to an event in a REAL DD street car and lay down mid 9's and DRIVE home. Not just 'street legal' but a 'street car'. May never happen, but I'm sure trying...lol

This is why my car seems 'forever broken'. The moral of the tech part of this is to set a reasonable goal that has been tried and proven and stick to it or be prepared to spend enough to own several stangs...

If you think my goal is easy, just try to find one doing it. I've always thought a 9 sec trailer car is just another 9 sec car. But a 9 sec true street car is a sight to behold....

 

[don_w]

I would think a T/S with that much power on the street as a DD with all that power always on is going to be dangerous and not very street friendly?

What do you mean by "with all that power always on"? With a TS, you don't see any boost whatsoever unless you want to. I could drive all week long and never see any boost.

 

[Geos05GTvert]

I'm saying if you stomp on the gas your ON T/S there is no spooling or waiting around. Where if I stomp on the gas I'm not quite ON until I build boost assuming I'm under 3K RPMS T/C.

So in my case if I accellerate hard under 3K RPM's I WonT see a lot of boost since it takes time to spool it would more like driving a stock car in my case since I dont have any other power making mods, untill I reach a certain point 2900RPMS. In your case you will be ON once you start to do hard acceleration.

Am I wrong here?

What do you mean by "with all that power always on"? With a TS, you don't see any boost whatsoever unless you want to. I could drive all week long and never see any boost.

 

[06vista]

What do you mean by "with all that power always on"? With a TS, you don't see any boost whatsoever unless you want to. I could drive all week long and never see any boost.

Don, I believe you need to update your post... you say you could drive all week long. I believe its more like monday through thursday. friday, saturday, and sunday make up for it at the drags!

Kenneth

 

[ChevyKiller]

Good luck on your quest. I have a similar quest but mine is to run 10's at the track and drive to and from the track. I'm going to try this with a 67mm turbo not a 76. The power house car ran 10.29 a couple of months ago? Why not just change the tune before you go home and make it streetable again? Did you ever consider mulitple tunes and or a nitrous kit? I think the only S197's right now running 9's are dual power adder's. Why not have a daily driver tune of 13PSI and a full out race tune of 20psi or whatever and juice to make sure you get that 9sec run. Or 13PSI daily driver and a shot of the juice? Just some thoughts. It sounds like you just want all the power there when you want it and thats that.

I would think a T/S with that much power on the street as a DD with all that power always on is going to be dangerous and not very street friendly?

Tell us how's your quest comming? IS the KB installed on your new SB? have you tested it yet at the track? How close are you to realizing your goals?

Don is correct and you will not find one turbo with N20 on 'top'. Some (none of the S197's I'm aware of) use a small shot of N20 on the low end to avoid heat soak and for cooling. No, when your in the sub 10's, it's either or turbo car or a nitrous car - not both. The reason you here about Burcham and other s/c guys using N20 on top is only because they have exhausted the limts of their s/c kit. There is not a big enough kit out there yet to run the 22+ psi you need.

The switching tunes I have always done but it was not practical on the turbo. You mention a 13 psi 'street tune' but you will find some serious issues on the street at even 13 psi. The PH car is a TRACK car, make no mistake about it. PH also has the luxury of replacing failures in that stock motor at will and just because you don't here about failures doesn't mean they don't occur.

I like the PH kit and for the 9-11 psi range, Mike has that kit dialed in but no way will it be a DD as the kit is currently over 12 psi.

I honestly don't know if I will ever realize my goal but should know within a couple weeks...(Hopefully...lol)

 

[ChevyKiller]

I'm saying if you stomp on the gas your ON T/S there is no spooling or waiting around. Where if I stomp on the gas I'm not quite ON until I build boost assuming I'm under 3K RPMS T/C.

So in my case if I accellerate hard under 3K RPM's I WonT see a lot of boost since it takes time to spool it would more like driving a stock car in my case since I dont have any other power making mods, untill I reach a certain point 2900RPMS. In your case you will be ON once you start to do hard acceleration.

Am I wrong here?

No you're right, but it's about driving smart. You don't have to 'stomp on the gas'. If Don stomps on the gas anywhere in 1st or low 2nd, it's sidewayz time, but he controls it by feathering it up to speed before punching it. ANY power adder making big power has to be driven wisely.

 

[don_w]

Don, I believe you need to update your post... you say you could drive all week long. I believe its more like monday through thursday. friday, saturday, and sunday make up for it at the drags!

Kenneth

Oh yea... once the slicks are, there's no holding back!!

No you're right, but it's about driving smart. You don't have to 'stomp on the gas'. If Don stomps on the gas anywhere in 1st or low 2nd, it's sidewayz time, but he controls it by feathering it up to speed before punching it. ANY power adder making big power has to be driven wisely.

Depending on the type of road surface, I've found out that any pedal to the metal below 30-40mph results in "sidewayz time", or at least a long tire spinning. But that's also a product of the 4.10s and my quickly balding street tires. I can't wait to see how the drag radials will work on the street.

 

[GT4Dino]

Oh yea... once the slicks are, there's no holding back!!




Depending on the type of road surface, I've found out that any pedal to the metal below 30-40mph results in "sidewayz time", or at least a long tire spinning. But that's also a product of the 4.10s and my quickly balding street tires. I can't wait to see how the drag radials will work on the street.

I really like the Nitto's on the street, so if you're going that route I think you'll be happy!!!! The strip, on the other hand..........well you already have the hookup there.

 

[ChevyKiller]

Ditto - the 305/45 555R's were 100% improvement on the street for me. Even adam was amazed at the difference in hook on the street.

Dino - how's it going? Are you going to Barona?

 

[retfr8flyr]

Don when will you be start running your M&H DR’s?



Earl

 

[don_w]

I really like the Nitto's on the street, so if you're going that route I think you'll be happy!!!! The strip, on the other hand..........well you already have the hookup there.

Nitto doesn't make a 555R size I can use.

I need at least a 28" tire to fit my 17x9 wheels. I'm planning on going with the 325/45-17 M&H DRs (28" dia, 10" wide).

Don when will you be start running your M&H DR’s?

Soon... very soon. My street tires are just about gone now.

 

[ChevyKiller]

- I thought you had 18's.

 

[Hawgman]

Mark, i'm in no way jumping in on your declairation here... but Joe has Shaun's car dialed in at 13 as a DD and it runs fine.

 

[ChevyKiller]

I used 13+ but should have used 14+. I was okay at 14 at around 560-580 rwhp. Once it broke into the 600 mark with 15+ all bets were off at that point. Seemed 600 HP was that tragic mark.

 

[qwkcoupe]

600HP was the tragic mark for the stock block internals right?