First HPDE event, Lessons learned.

This past weekend I finally made it to my first Track Event at the NASA Race at Eagle Canyon Raceway. I only ran one day ( Sunday ) and that was probably my first lesson. Race both days if you have any aspirations to advance up the HPDE ranks. I was one to 3 new cars out of the 20+ cars their on Sunday for HPDE1/2, so most where on their second day. I would like to get to Time Trails eventually, and at the very least the ability to solo soon. Well if I would of been there on Saturday, I'd of probably gotten my (2) on Sunday and been able to solo. They generally don't give out 2's on your first day ever of Track racing. Anybody have insight/experience with how long it take to get through HPDE. I'm assuming doing a Racing school would be the fastest way. I'm wondering if that would be the more economical way or doing X number of weekends. If it only takes about 4 weekends of HPDE then it is about $1K to get through HPDE, where as a class is $3K or so, correct? Anyway I need to investigate that more.

I spent saturday swapping on my race rotors and pads, changing my oil, etc basic track prep type stuff. Found out the take off front rotors I got off Roush where brembo rotors. Which didn't work for my 2006 stock front brake car. So I had to do a quick run to O'reilly's to get cheapo chinese front rotors, which I wasn't too happy about. Luckily ended up not being an issue, I was worried the getting the micro fracturing because of cheap material. I went with Carbotech XP12 in front and XP8 in back with Motul 600 fluid. And I have to say, my brakes where awesome the whole day. So thanks to Terry for the recommendation.

Getting there Sunday morning early, i luckily found Terry right next to the gate and had a place to hang and unload my stuff. Tech was quick and painless and the morning HPDE meeting was quick and easy. I do have to say, the meeting was oriented towards second day drivers. I got a quick "the flags mean this" lesson after the meeting which wasn't too bad but it was new to me and there were like 6 different flags. My instructor was cool and helped with lines. At first he was telling me he would get me a ride with someone and it would help me learn the course. But after our first session he said my driving and control of the car was good enough and I probably wouldn't gain much from riding with someone else. I was pretty aggressive and this is were I think my biggest lesson came from. I never lost control or anything, but I did get up on some slower traffic's ass. Enough for him to get uneasy and tell me to back off. I was pissed I wasn't getting the pass, and having to drive <80% to keep from running up there ass. This happened for the last 2/3rds of my first session, the first 1/3 of my second session, and the last 3/4 of by last session. The second and last session was the same damn BMW and he never gave me the pass, even though I was all over his ass. Luckily in the second session he pitted and I was able to have clear open track for the remainder of that session I was really getting pissed in the third session. Cars would come up on me and I would let them pass, then he'd let them pass and then keep me behind The only reason these cars were catching me was because I was stuck behind this bozo. He was getting the "let the car pass flag" and ignoring the shit out of it. My lesson here though was HPDE is about proving to be safe on track and not fast. My "gapping" score was pretty shitty and were I needed most work. I'd ease up for a bit to give some space and I catch the guy quickly once I got going again. My instructor even told me that last session that if I rear end the guy they'd never let me race here again, lol. So yeah, I was being way to competitive and wanting to go fast, instead of demonstrating safety and control. Don't do that on day one of HPDE.

When I did have clear track is was great. I gridded at about 12th or so. I and would only need to let a few bye and I was let by a few. So I think I was pretty close gridding wise.

I definitely need more tire and a better seat. Half way through second session and my tires were hating me. And that night I was sore as hell from trying to keep myself in my stock seat.

Overall I really enjoyed myself, even though I was really frustrated with the BMW. And I can see that being a constant problem. The coyote mustangs that where there ran off and left me, so I'm down on power there. They had better suspension and tires too, but still I found myself wishing for me acceleration down the straights. With better tires, I could carry more speed through the corners and that would put me in a better rpm for pulling down the straights. This track for me was a 3rd and 4th gear only track. Low 3rd coming out of the slower corners and high 4th at the end of the straights. Still need lots of heel/toe practice but I did get better at that towards the end.

Hopefully the next time I'll have my sways( front and rear ) and either better wheels and tires, or at the very least a better seat. I'm wary of using a seat and harness for daily driving though. And changing rotors and pad was enough of a PITA that adding seat/s and harness to the track day prep might make it even more of a PITA. It seems to me most folks on here that have gone to a race seat and harness aren't daily driving their car anymore. Anybody here have any insight into daily-ing with a race seat and harness?

I was hoping to get to run again in a month, but I realized that weekend is my daughter's and wife's birthday. So yeah, that is a no go.

For HPDE 1 and 2 they are looking to see if you are aware of your surroundings and are a safe driver. They do not care if you can drive fast. They want to see if you look at all the flag stations. They want to see you looking ahead and that you not getting tunnel vision. They want to see smooth driving. Those are the some of the things they are looking for during your check ride. Also, during a check ride if you make a mistake they want to know what you did and why you did it, i.e. early apex.

If you find yourself in a situation were a driver won't give you the pass, simply hot pit and let them get a head of you. That will open up the track and make it more fun. If you can go to ECR more often you will move up quicker when doing NASA events. This was my first NASA event and I was moved up the 1st day after my check ride, which you have to ask for.

Also, it was nice meeting you on Sunday. I have the white mustang #157.

The first thing I learned from track days was that the most improvement you can make is yourself as a driver. I'm no where capable of exceeding the limitations of the car at the track with my current driving skills. So I've pulled back from any MAJOR mods like coilovers and other suspension mods that would make my street driving uncomfortable.

2013MustangGT said:

For HPDE 1 and 2 they are looking to see if you are aware of your surroundings and are a safe driver. They do not care if you can drive fast. They want to see if you look at all the flag stations. They want to see you looking ahead and that you not getting tunnel vision. They want to see smooth driving. Those are the some of the things they are looking for during your check ride. Also, during a check ride if you make a mistake they want to know what you did and why you did it, i.e. early apex.

If you find yourself in a situation were a driver won't give you the pass, simply hot pit and let them get a head of you. That will open up the track and make it more fun. If you can go to ECR more often you will move up quicker when doing NASA events. This was my first NASA event and I was moved up the 1st day after my check ride, which you have to ask for.

Also, it was nice meeting you on Sunday. I have the white mustang #157.

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Nice meeting you too. So you have to ask to be moved to 2? I figured once you have passed the instructors mustard they'd automatically do that. And since I was pretty much regularly on someone ass, he didn't feel safe moving me up. LOL, probably some of both. I did tell him my goal was to get to Time trials. So he knew I was looking to move forward and not just have a track day. He mentioned I was a little too autocrossy in the turns after the first session. Throwing it in and what not. I did get allot smoother, though I still had a tendency to enter 7 and 11 early. I realize they wanted to see smooth lines, but when you literally have to drive it out to the line they are trying to get you on, because you aren't going fast enough for the cars momentum to carry you there, it seems silly. Which is what was happening to me behind the slower cars.

NDSP said:

This past weekend I finally made it to my first Track Event at the NASA Race at Eagle Canyon Raceway. I only ran one day ( Sunday ) and that was probably my first lesson. Race both days if you have any aspirations to advance up the HPDE ranks. I was one to 3 new cars out of the 20+ cars their on Sunday for HPDE1/2, so most where on their second day. I would like to get to Time Trails eventually, and at the very least the ability to solo soon. Well if I would of been there on Saturday, I'd of probably gotten my (2) on Sunday and been able to solo. They generally don't give out 2's on your first day ever of Track racing. Anybody have insight/experience with how long it take to get through HPDE. I'm assuming doing a Racing school would be the fastest way. I'm wondering if that would be the more economical way or doing X number of weekends. If it only takes about 4 weekends of HPDE then it is about $1K to get through HPDE, where as a class is $3K or so, correct? Anyway I need to investigate that more.

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Okay, so a few questions... #1: WHY are you so focused on "going solo?" The HPDE is all about driver training (High Performance Driver Education), and you get an instructor for FREE with every signup. Yes, you can do a race school (Skip Barber, et al), but while that will buy you an immediate provisional TT license, what it won't buy you is seat time, which is key to developing situational awareness on track, as well as getting an understanding of process, procedure, and overall comfort. Think of it this way: What will you do if you're solo, and it rains midway through the day... Do you know what a "rain line" is? Do you know how to find it by reading the track surface? Do you know how the handling balance of your car will shift with the reduced traction? Do you have any general off-line driving strategies? Have you experienced "marbles" and their aftermath? Have you noted the differing speeds possible on different lines (inside, outside, early-apex, VERY late apex)? All that type of info will usually be gained through a "normal" HPDE-1 career.

I spent saturday swapping on my race rotors and pads, changing my oil, etc basic track prep type stuff. Found out the take off front rotors I got off Roush where brembo rotors. Which didn't work for my 2006 stock front brake car. So I had to do a quick run to O'reilly's to get cheapo chinese front rotors, which I wasn't too happy about. Luckily ended up not being an issue, I was worried the getting the micro fracturing because of cheap material. I went with Carbotech XP12 in front and XP8 in back with Motul 600 fluid. And I have to say, my brakes where awesome the whole day. So thanks to Terry for the recommendation.

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Yup, those brake pads are great, and will keep your car happy. Also, with experience, it gets a LOT easier swapping out brake parts.

Getting there Sunday morning early, i luckily found Terry right next to the gate and had a place to hang and unload my stuff. Tech was quick and painless and the morning HPDE meeting was quick and easy. I do have to say, the meeting was oriented towards second day drivers. I got a quick "the flags mean this" lesson after the meeting which wasn't too bad but it was new to me and there were like 6 different flags. My instructor was cool and helped with lines. At first he was telling me he would get me a ride with someone and it would help me learn the course. But after our first session he said my driving and control of the car was good enough and I probably wouldn't gain much from riding with someone else. I was pretty aggressive and this is were I think my biggest lesson came from. I never lost control or anything, but I did get up on some slower traffic's ass. Enough for him to get uneasy and tell me to back off.

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I've probably heard (and given) the flag speech a couple hundred times, but yes, it can be a bit overwhelming when it first pops up. After your fourth or fifth track weekend, the flags become old friends, and you start to really read the corner workers, and how they're using the flags. It is, after all, information being given to you to help you stay safe on track, so it's in your best interests to get them (and their meanings and implications) ingrained.

Now, about traffic management... This is one of those skills that you learn by experience and exposure, and is really key to the whole driving experience. It sounds like you were aware of surrounding traffic, and actively assisted in making passes (on you) happen smoothly and safely, so kudos for that. With respect to following distance, you have to keep in mind that both you AND the car you're right on top of are novices, and are prone to doing VERY unpredictable stuff. Give the other guy some room. Yes, in the race vids, you'll see cars nose-to-tail with inches between them, but trying to attempt that in HPDE, particularly in the lower groups (1 and 2) is just asking for bent sheetmetal. Remember that the faster you're going, the more space will be eaten up during the decision-making process. For sake of argument, they guy ahead of you had tunnel-vision, and had tuned out his instructor (it happens)... At some point he glances up in his mirror and sees you all over his ass, says something to the effect of "Eeek!" and slams on the brake in a panic, right in the middle of a long straight at 120mph. (And yes, I've seen that happen!) Now, you are all of 4 feet off the guy's rear bumper, he suddenly checks up, and it's all in your hands. Time to process the fact that he hit the brake pedal is probably 125mS. Decision-making time is a variable, but let's say you're hot and can process the fact that yes, he DID hit the brakes on the straight, and yes, he IS slowing rapidly, and yes, you DO need to do something to avoid hitting him, ALL in 100mS. At 120mph, if you snap the wheel over to try to get around him, you will cease to be a driver and will become a passenger in a spinning car, with little or no control over the outcome. The hot ticket is to hit the brakes. In a panic condition, it will take you approximately 150mS to get off the gas and on the brakes HARD. So far, it's taken 375mS, over a third of a second, from the time he hits the brakes to the time you're on the binders at the same rate. 120mph is 176 feet per second, and that 1/3 second decision-loop that you went through took nearly 60 feet to occur. Unfortunately, you only had 22mS to react in before the four feet between you evaporated. End result: You just punted him off the track somewhere around 110mph. Not good.

The way that I teach my students is to get up to the car you're closing on, trying to make eye-contact while you close. If you make eye contact, then back off, and plan on a perfect run through the next corner leading to a passing zone. If you don't make eye contact, assume he doesn't know you're there, and back off immediately, then start working his mirrors until you DO have eye contact. Since you're backed off a bit, you can then make a solid run through the next corner, and anticipate the pass, pulling off-line to make it happen while waiting for the point-by. If the other guy chokes, you're not right behind him, but off to the side, so there is separation. If he doesn't give the point-by, then back off, and drop back in trail and set up for the pass again. If he DOES give the point-by, then you've got all the advantages of momentum, higher exit speed out of the corner to make the pass happen quickly and safely.

If for whatever reason the other guy simply won't point you by, pull into the hot pits, and tell the grid marshal that you want separation. You'll lose MAYBE 10 seconds of track time, but it will bring your blood pressure wayyyy down.

I was pissed I wasn't getting the pass, and having to drive <80% to keep from running up there ass. This happened for the last 2/3rds of my first session, the first 1/3 of my second session, and the last 3/4 of by last session. The second and last session was the same damn BMW and he never gave me the pass, even though I was all over his ass. Luckily in the second session he pitted and I was able to have clear open track for the remainder of that session I was really getting pissed in the third session. Cars would come up on me and I would let them pass, then he'd let them pass and then keep me behind The only reason these cars were catching me was because I was stuck behind this bozo. He was getting the "let the car pass flag" and ignoring the shit out of it. My lesson here though was HPDE is about proving to be safe on track and not fast. My "gapping" score was pretty shitty and were I needed most work. I'd ease up for a bit to give some space and I catch the guy quickly once I got going again. My instructor even told me that last session that if I rear end the guy they'd never let me race here again, lol. So yeah, I was being way to competitive and wanting to go fast, instead of demonstrating safety and control. Don't do that on day one of HPDE.

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With respect, what you were doing there was on the verge of becoming a "bumper bully." Yes, you were faster, and yes, you wanted to get by. How you approached that, however can frequently backfire on you.

Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the guy in the BMW was simply in overload condition, what with this being a race track, his car was going to burst into flames and flip over any second, the instructor is yelling in his ear, and these weird flags are flying all over the place. His heartrate was well into the triple-digits, he's on the edge of hyperventilating, and in short, is completely overwhelmed by the environment. Now, you come along and glue yourself to his ass-end. His heartrate and repiration rate ticks upwards, and now there's NO WAY that he's going to take a hand off the wheel to point you by, because if he does HE WILL DIE IN A FLAMING WRECK! Also, just to add insult to injury, he might try to pick up the pace to get away from you, exceeds his talent level and the car starts getting twitchy, so now he's convinced that the car will self-destruct if he releases one white-knuckled hand from the wheel to make the point by gesture. OR, he's so freaked out by you sitting in his trunk, that he slows down, still terrified, and you not only don't get the point by, but you also start going slower... That's the psychology of being on the receiving end, and a possible answer to why you didn't get the point-by.

As for why others did, and you didn't, there are a couple possible reasons... First, when you gave another car a point-by, you dropped back and suddenly the pressure was off. The other car slotted in, but left reasonable gap, and as a result, the guy was able to pry his hand loose to wave the car aound. Then you slot in, right on his ass, and he's back to being terrified. The OTHER possibility, is that with you sitting so close, he was getting more and more pissed off at you, to the point where there was NO WAY he was going to point you around...

I've seen ALL of those circumstances countless times, but the bottom line is that tucking in close to a novice is just NEVER a good idea. Best thing is to dive into hot-pits to get separation, then talk about the issue in your download after the session.

And you're right, being hyper-aggressive is NOT the thing to do in HPDE. It's all about learning the proper techniques, accumulating experience (with guidance! VERY important!!), acclimatizing yourself to the environment, and assimilating knowledge in a SAFE manner.

When I did have clear track is was great. I gridded at about 12th or so. I and would only need to let a few bye and I was let by a few. So I think I was pretty close gridding wise.

I definitely need more tire and a better seat. Half way through second session and my tires were hating me. And that night I was sore as hell from trying to keep myself in my stock seat.

Overall I really enjoyed myself, even though I was really frustrated with the BMW. And I can see that being a constant problem. The coyote mustangs that where there ran off and left me, so I'm down on power there. They had better suspension and tires too, but still I found myself wishing for me acceleration down the straights. With better tires, I could carry more speed through the corners and that would put me in a better rpm for pulling down the straights. This track for me was a 3rd and 4th gear only track. Low 3rd coming out of the slower corners and high 4th at the end of the straights. Still need lots of heel/toe practice but I did get better at that towards the end.

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Again, power is fun and makes you feel like a hero, but speed comes from refinement of skill set, not just checking off boxes on your "report card." The fast guys in TT are those that went through the HPDE ladder system with a focus on acquiring the skills they needed, rater than just blowing through in the minimum time possible.

With the gearing in the S197, MOST tracks are 3rd/4th, so no surprises there. And remember, there will ALWAYS be somebody that is better prepped, and faster. It's not about the hardware, it's about what you do with it.

I honestly don't want to sound like I'm bitching at you, because I'm really not! Gaining an insight into "the other guy" can and will help you through all phases of motorsport. At the pointy end, in a TT or race group, we study the drivers around us constantly, looking for an edge. In TT, since it's all about the fastest lap, we study the other guy looking to pick up a tip, like where did he turn-in, and was he faster because of it? Racing, we study the other guy to identify weaknesses to exploit... Is the other guy a little timid of the big brake zones? Cool, I can stick my nose in under braking. Is he always a few feet off apex in this one particular corner? Can I force him a little bit wider so that I can get in there?

NONE of the race stuff has any application in the HPDE system, but you can ALWAYS study the other driver... Now as a double-check on how comfortable YOU were, pretend that we just had this whole discussion while I was in the right seat, and you were running max boogie out on the track. That corner-worker station we just passed? What color shirt was the guy wearing? Do you get my point?


While the "promotion" process from -1 to -2 varies slightly by region, we (the instructor cadre) are all looking at the same book for what it takes. Before I'll pass a student up to -2, SOME of the things I look for are consistency of line and braking points, general driving technique, the ability to self-analyze and self-correct, understanding of ALL of the flags and procedures (I wont' be in the car to answer questions!), solid comfort level out on track, good situational awareness (particularly the corner workers), active participation in passing situations, solid judgement and good decision making processes. If the student has all of that, and expresses a desire to advance (some WANT the instruction), then my last gut-check is to see if, in MY judgement, they will be safe; not a danger to themselves or the others on track. If that "feels right," then I'll let them out solo, either for a session, or promote them to -2.

It still sounds like you had some fun, though, right? In the end, that's what it's all about. Also, make sure you tell your instructors in the future that you are focused on going to TT. Many of us will re-prioritize SOME of the things we teach when we know what the students' focus might be.

NDSP said:

I realize they wanted to see smooth lines, but when you literally have to drive it out to the line they are trying to get you on, because you aren't going fast enough for the cars momentum to carry you there, it seems silly. Which is what was happening to me behind the slower cars.

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Try not to think of that as silly, but more like muscle memory. You should be keeping your line even during your cool down lap. I see a lot of people who choose not to do that. I always take advantage of trying to get my line perfect during the cool down lap because at speed you, at least me, are not perfect. Even when I have someone, who may be holding up 5 cars in front of me, going slow I will take that time to work on my line. When I get close to the pits and see they don't exit, I do.

This past weekend, on Saturday, a S2000 line up 1st on the grid. He was extremely slow and I was the 4th car back. After we did our first hot lap I enter the hot pits. When I got back on the track I eventually caught the S2000 and was able to pass him because all the other cars had already passed him. I got two really nice laps that season and I was extremely happy. After that I asked to be moved up and my instructor said yes. The next season I went out with a different instructor for the check ride. When we finished he asked some question of what I would do in certain situations and what my goals are for racing. Next day I was lining up 1st in the grid and had a great time. Learned a lot this past weekend, especially on turns 7 and 9.

SoundGuyDave,

Thanks for you input. I realized during my drive home that I was probably being a bit of a dick to that guy by riding his bumper like that. I like to think I can take correction/criticism and learn from it. My ego isn't that big ( anymore, lol). I did have a great time, it was a bit of a whirlwind. It didn't seem like any time went buy between sessions and I loved being out there for 20 mins at a whack. That night and the next day, I was exhausted. It takes more out of you than you think it will. I should of hot pitted more than once that day and I'd have probably been a much happier camper. I did realize that having either someone in front or behind you can kind of consume your focus and makes everything else a haze. After the first session I couldn't of told you what any of the corner stations where doing. Second session and on I was much better at seeing the stations and flags presented.

I will get some more track time, hopefully sooner rather than later. I also kind of just drive my car the way it drives. Meaning aside from wheels/tires and a good seat. I couldn't tell you what tendencies it has. ie what does the car need to make it easier to drive. So that is something I'll need to figure out. Probably try and talk Terry into taking it for a spin around the track or something.

Anyway, thank you for your insight. It is much appreciated.

NDSP said:

SoundGuyDave,

Thanks for you input. I realized during my drive home that I was probably being a bit of a dick to that guy by riding his bumper like that. I like to think I can take correction/criticism and learn from it. My ego isn't that big ( anymore, lol). I did have a great time, it was a bit of a whirlwind. It didn't seem like any time went buy between sessions and I loved being out there for 20 mins at a whack. That night and the next day, I was exhausted. It takes more out of you than you think it will. I should of hot pitted more than once that day and I'd have probably been a much happier camper. I did realize that having either someone in front or behind you can kind of consume your focus and makes everything else a haze. After the first session I couldn't of told you what any of the corner stations where doing. Second session and on I was much better at seeing the stations and flags presented.

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Absolutely awesome!! Take THAT mentality back to the track, and I think you'll go far, and quickly. A race track is a COMPLETELY alien environment to novices, and the environment can be overwhelming. You got EXACTLY what I was trying for with the "corner worker's shirt color" thing: I throw a LOT of stuff like that at my students, with the intent to have them expand their vision and awareness far beyond the confines of the car and what's directly ahead... And yes, "awareness" of the flag workers themselves can save your ass... A year or so ago, in a race, I was coming up on a high-speed corner where the braking zone was just over a hillcrest, one that I normally take right around 90mph at apex. Out of the corner of my eye, I noticed a corner worker (just before the hill) quickly reaching down into the corner worker's station as I zipped by foot welded to the accelerator. My mind just clicked that he was grabbing for a flag, and with a sense of urgency. There are only three flags that would be thrown with that type of aggression, a waving yellow, debris, or a red. Any way you look at it, that meant that there was something up ahead from the "not good" column, so race or not, I checked up hard. As I started to crest the hill, I found a 911 PARKED sideways across the track right before apex. Even though I never saw the flag from that corner worker, previous experience allowed me to grasp the intent, and allowed me to just drive around the 911 and continue on. If, however, I hadn't noticed it, I would have charged into that corner at full chat, and I probably would have either center-punched the Porsche, or stuffed it into a tire wall trying to avoid contact. Examples like these are one of the reasons that I try to get my students to slow up, and focus on the ART of driving fast, even at the expense of speed. Honestly, at least in my mind, that's what HPDE-3 is for: generating speed.

HPDE-1: Novice, there for you to learn the basics while with a qualified instructor to assist you and keep you safe from things you may not even know are issues.
HPDE-2: Beginner, there for you to practice and refine the skills you learned in HPDE-1, as well as accumulate experience and become completely comfortable with the race track environment.
HPDE-3: Intermediate, to let you take those refined techniques and start focusing on speed. Lots of drills, like offline driving, passing in corners, 2-wide laps, trailbraking, etc., to start introducing you to the advanced-level skills you'll want. Note that there is a BIG leap from -2 to -3, and if you were "killing baby seals" in -2, there's a pretty good chance you'll get run over in -3.
HPDE-4: Advanced, the absolute pinnacle of the ladder system. With this group passing rules are relaxed (possibly even non-existant), and often it's simply "open passing," with no required point-by, and passing anywhere at any time. If you find yourself in a -4 group, your head MUST be on a swivel! When you get to TT, realize that it'll be exactly the same as HPDE-4, but with VERY aggressive drivers and it's own set of etiquette. That's why TT requires previous -4 or equivalent time before you can apply for a provisional license.

The HPDE ladder system works. Each level is built on the level before, but unless the earlier level is MASTERED, you can find yourself over your head. That can be dangerous. Take the time to run up the ladder the right way, without forcing the issue, and you'll be a better driver for it. Also realize that if you "bust" a check-ride to move up, the instructor does have the ability to recommend that you be moved down, not just refuse the promotion. It's rare, but it can happen. I don't say that to make a check-ride frightening or put any pressure on, but until you can honestly say "yeah, I got this," you really shouldn't be looking for that bump up.

I guess what I'm saying is "Kids, stay in school."

I will get some more track time, hopefully sooner rather than later. I also kind of just drive my car the way it drives. Meaning aside from wheels/tires and a good seat. I couldn't tell you what tendencies it has. ie what does the car need to make it easier to drive. So that is something I'll need to figure out. Probably try and talk Terry into taking it for a spin around the track or something.

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All good. With experience (more track days) you'll discover what about the car is hampering you or annoying you. Until YOU make that determination, though, anybody elses opinion is just going to be what they like or want to see the chassis do. Seat time is king, both from a drivers standpoint or from a mod standpoint. One last thing to think about if you're heading towards TT: The rules will change before you get there... Resist the urge to mod the car until you're within striking distance of getting into TT. The more you do now, the less room you have to build a competitive car for TT. Now that TTA is gone, there's a pretty big gap between a decently-modified TTB Mustang GT and a TT3 pure power-to-weight contender. Before you mod anything, make sure the "points" cost is going to be worth it for TT. I'll give you a hint: you will NOT see "return on investment" with aftermarket LCAs and relo brackets. There are also a lot of other places where it won't pay off, and some where they're worth their weight in gold. Seat time is the only way you'll figure that out, though! If you really have the urge to mod, focus on safety gear and weight reduction, but no lower than 3450lbs!

Anyway, thank you for your insight. It is much appreciated.

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Anytime, and I do mean that seriously. I was hoping you wouldn't take my comments the wrong way, they were intended to be supportive and constructive, but I really did need to get the safety focus forward. It looks like you took it the way I intended, so thank you for that!

Good Read Dave.

You can retain your stock seatbelt with a racing seat and still have a harness

It's actually not legal to use the harness on the road, no red button for emergency responders to press to get you out.

Question. If you hold race licenses in 4 diffrent clubs but their for bikes do you still have to do the level 1 and 2? I can see where it would get frustrating not being able to pass but riding his bumper is asking for trouble. Can you not just pass him on one of the streights or short chutes? What about squirting by comming out of the corners? Just do a late apex and keep it tight comming out and it should set u up for a decent pass or is none of this legal?

In almost all HPDE events the beginner group do point by passing only. Most have the novice group point by only on specific sections of the track. A proper HPDE instructor and host track should go out of their way to inform you that you are not racing. You are learning the ropes of high performance driving, and when you are stuck behind someone slower you have a great opportunity to practice the proper the line.

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Roadracer350 said:

Question. If you hold race licenses in 4 diffrent clubs but their for bikes do you still have to do the level 1 and 2? I can see where it would get frustrating not being able to pass but riding his bumper is asking for trouble. Can you not just pass him on one of the streights or short chutes? What about squirting by comming out of the corners? Just do a late apex and keep it tight comming out and it should set u up for a decent pass or is none of this legal?

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In HPDE 1/2 you have to wait for a point by before you can pass. Oddly enough, the aspect where I caught people the most was braking. Most of the cars corner speed was comparable to mine, half of the cars straight away accel/speed was the same or better. But most of the people I caught I caught in the braking zones. Lots and lots of early brakers in HPDE 1/2. I say most, let me clarify a little. Of the folks gridding in the top half where I was that was the case. I never saw the bottom half gridders.

That sucks balls....

@NDSP

On Saturday and Sunday they were gridding DE2 first and then DE1. If you have a chance to do ECR's track days they will only have DE1(green group) line up up than they try to send them out by power, so if you have a Mazda lined up before you they will hold the Mazda up and give you the point. For DE2 (blue group) it's the same thing.

Roadracer350 said:

That sucks balls....

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Yeah, it can be trying at times... NOBODY likes the "conga line!" Really, though, that whole "mandatory point-by, in designated passing zones" is really there for safety.

HPDE-1 and -2 get drivers with a WIDE range of experience, and you can get a lot of "odd" scenarios. Cars tracking out to the wrong side of the course, random braking points. "Apex? What's an apex?" Miatas passing ZR-1s, and the ever-popular spinning 911s. Occasionally, If I've solo'd a student, I'll go out in -1/2 and work through traffic to see how things are going, who needs help, who's doing it right, etc.

This is where the "contract passing" really proves it's worth. For guys like you and me, with significant track experience, we CAN put the car anywhere we want and make it stick. For the newbies, well, not so much...

By mandating a contract between the overtaking car and the lead car, it essentially reduces risk of car-on-car contact to nil. As the lead car, that driver actually controls the pass, by designating when the pass will happen, where the pass will happen, as well as what side the pass will happen on. For the overtaking car, it's simple. Do you agree to those terms? If so, pull offline, and execute the pass. If you don't agree with those terms, then wave off the pass and we'll try it again on the next big straight.

This is to avoid having cars side-by-side in the braking zone or worse, at apex. Novice drivers are typically still trying to learn how to drive ON the line, and some feel that if they have to go off-line, the car will flip, burst into flames, and crash automatically... There's already enough stress in their mind, so anything that can be done to reduce that stress is a good thing. By placing control of the pass in the hands of the slower driver, that stress is in fact reduced. Also, keep in mind that the business-side goal of the HPDE program is to retain the driver as a customer. We won't do that if he or she sees three or four cars from their group leaving on a flatbed every event... Car-to-car contact happens in the race groups, that's just a fact of life. It shouldn't happen in TT, but very occasionally does, usually with severe administrative repercussions. HPDE is geared to actively prevent car-to-car contact, though, which is one of the main reasons that idiots like us would take their perfectly nice street cars out on a race track in the first place.

While you and I would have no problem with popping inside in the braking zone, and then going two-wide through the corner, that might be a bit much for a novice that is still tunnel-vision focused 10' in front of their hood, and WILL turn into you, never having seen you.

Your best bet is to contact the Chief Instructor for the NASA region closest to you, lay out your experience, and ask him where you should be placed in the HPDE ladder. You might be tossed into HPDE-2 for your first session, with an instructor to do a check-ride and then immediately bounced into HPDE-3. Who knows? Best to ask.

Now, based on what you asked earlier, about being race-licensed, but only on bikes, DO you have time on track in a car? Might be worth a weekend in -1 or -2 just to shake off the cobwebs and get used to the differences... Just sayin'. And ABSOLUTELY no offense intended!

Dave,

Good information.

Here's a suggestion to think about for DE drivers. If you go from 1 to 2 in NASA on one track and then you go to another track the next month it's okay to sign up for DE1 again. This way you will have an instructor to help you with the line on a new track and once you feel comfortable you can move up to 2. They will already have you signed off for DE2 in your drivers hand book and they keep a record of that.

Ok I am getting that #1 & 2 is pretty much beginners but is the 3 an open track? In bikes on track days you have Beginner, Street A, Street B and Race. Beginners are just that. They are taking the class and first timers. Street A is for guys that are fast street riders, Street B is for guys that have done it a couple times and are faster than the reg guys and are also running race bodywork. Race is licensed racers only.

Yea I am getting some. I know the owner at Hallett so he let me take a NASA prepped vette and and Ex Red Bull Toyota Cup car around. Also the guy that instructs for the track days let me drive his P51 Roush(with him shotgun) around. At first I was doing car lines but I had better times and was more comfortable doing bike lines and point n shoot in a couple corners. His worn tyres didnt like the corner speed i was trying tho! LOL! I didn't put any amazing times down but he said I was good to. I ran low 1.27s and high 1.26s. Way off my bike time of 1.18s!

1:26 at Hallett is not too shabby, you'd be competitive in NASA TTB with that