Edelbrock E-Force Results........

explict · Mar 31, 2009

shanec said:
The Edelbrock guy in another form said they're reporting the average psi over the boosted rpm band or something like that.

It would be just as unfair to report only the minimum or maximum number. Maybe they should have reported a range, "5-7psi".

Makes sense. Even though a turbo kit would not be rated on average psi.

MickeySaleen · Mar 31, 2009

JimIII@JDM said:
Get off the recliners and order your Edlebrocks, best street car blower kit going right now!!

Jim, not trying to discredit what your are saying, although a very bold statement right there, but I have seen nothing but bad things about this blower. Numerous customer's cars not getting the results (mostly in the high 300rwhp range on 7-8 psi), not even close to what Edelbrock claimed. I am waiting to hear of a single good experience besides yours with this blower. My Saleen blower is making 458rwhp on 6psi, old technology compared to the edlebrock. My blower is ported, but you can't help but notice this thing is underperforming

And this whole thing about average boost? What the hell is that? Every other blower is dyno'd looking for numbers at peak boost, why is Edelbrock the exception?

ROUSH1711 · Mar 31, 2009

MickeySaleen said:
My Saleen blower is making 458rwhp on 6psi, old technology compared to the edlebrock. My blower is ported, but you can't help but notice this thing is underperforming

You crack me up!

Every forum,if its a Edelbrock thread
or techco thread,your there to point
out the edelbrock issue..lol We KNOW.

Give it alittle time bro,Im sure you will
have all your answers.I dont think you
need to worry,techco will still sell their
T/S's,and Im sure a nice discount for you :clap:

P.S. Im still going Edelbrock on my 010

shanec · Mar 31, 2009

I like the Edelbrock & Roush concept with this - a blower that saves some boost for higher rpm (less lower end stress than a higher boost twin screw). Its sort of like the best of a twin screw combined with the bets of a centri. And the base model is right in the bounds of conservative safety for the longevity of the engine.

I also like that its quiet, although I think I'm in the minority on that one.

MickeySaleen · Mar 31, 2009

ROUSH1711 said:
You crack me up!

Every forum,if its a Edelbrock thread
or techco thread,your there to point
out the edelbrock issue..lol We KNOW.

Give it alittle time bro,Im sure you will
have all your answers.I dont think you
need to worry,techco will still sell their
T/S's,and Im sure a nice discount for you

P.S. Im still going Edelbrock on my 010

All the hype started to irritate me because it was all everyone saw and talked about all over any forums for weeks...I kept my mouth shut, then the results came out so now I can say whatever I like. Show me where I tried to push Techco's product in my post and I will gladly leave the thread.

And dont worry, Im sure Edelbrock will be throwing you a chunk of the pie as well

ROUSH1711 · Mar 31, 2009

WHOA...I guess I struck a nerve.
Its laid back here,we all know you
love techco,no crime in that unless
you feel the need to get defensive.

Chill there mickey,I didnt say you
pushed anything here..c'mon man.

Chunk of the pie...lol..ok Mickey :beerchug2:

MickeySaleen said:
All the hype started to irritate me because it was all everyone saw and talked about all over any forums for weeks...I kept my mouth shut, then the results came out so now I can say whatever I like. Show me where I tried to push Techco's product in my post and I will gladly leave the thread.

And dont worry, Im sure Edelbrock will be throwing you a chunk of the pie as well

MickeySaleen · Mar 31, 2009

ROUSH1711 said:
WHOA...I guess I struck a nerve.
Its laid back here,we all know you
love techco,no crime in that unless
you feel the need to get defensive.

Chill there mickey,I didnt say you
pushed anything here..c'mon man.

Chunk of the pie...lol..ok Mickey

Im all for being relaxed, guys all over a bunch of forums can vouch for that. Implying that I am getting hooked up via a Techco blower and such isn't really a joke...I can see you werent expecting that kind of response from me so what you previously said instantly became a "joke".

ROUSH1711 · Mar 31, 2009

MickeySaleen said:
Im all for being relaxed, guys all over a bunch of forums can vouch for that. Implying that I am getting hooked up via a Techco blower and such isn't really a joke...I can see you werent expecting that kind of response from me so what you previously said instantly became a "joke".

Your quote above:
" but I have seen nothing but bad things about this blower."
Thats not true at all.

Im on the same forums,so are alot of other
folks out there.My comment is a joke based
on all the love you give edelbrock on the forums.
I dont need to post in all to read them all.

Take it to pm if needed,this is Mike's thread.
I dont want alittle fun turning this into drama here.

Mike@PowerHouse · Apr 1, 2009

Just so you guys know I am on here to help spread tech to you guys and maybe get some of you to look at things from a different perspective, this perspective will allow you to have a better understanding of how and why things work like they do.

Here is a link to a post I made in regards to RWHP numbers, hopefully you can understand that they are simply a gauge,
http://s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218000&postcount=30

Boost in PSI is often times wrongly viewed. It is really Intake manifold pressure vs. atmospheric pressure, or manifold pressure delta-p. Because we seldomly know the actual atmospheric pressure we simply refer to manifold pressure as boost.
Superchargers are driven by the crankshaft, which means that the supercharger will always drive at a specific ratio when compared to the crank. This ratio is what determines supercharger speed, this speed is what dictates how much air (CFM) is drawn into and processed by the supercharger. This CFM or volume of air being pumped out of the supercharger creates "boost" or manifold pressure delta-p.
This "boost" is actually the engines reluctancy to accept a given volume of air. This can be realized in a case where someone may add ported heads, cam and stroker kit to a supercharged angine, if the pullies remained unchanged you will actually see the "boost" drop. Is it because the supercharger is delivering less air?, no. It is simply because the engine is more accepting to the volume of air being delivered by the supercharger, remember the blower speed and volume are unchanged because our drive ratio is the same as it were before our stroker/head/cam/ swap.
Some people refer to pullies as "14psi pulley", not the case, the pulley is a given diameter, not a given pressure.

Now if we have a day when the bar. press is low we will still see the same "Boost" (because our pressure delta-p is the same) but the actually the air delivered to the motor is less than it would be on a nice, clear, high pressure day. That is why cars run better in nice weather. This is also why there are weather stations and correction factors built into dyno's. These correction factors are what HELP stabalize the dyno results from day to day.

There are tons of reasons why boost will vary from car to car, here are just a couple,

1st, sensor or gauge calibration.
2nd, Atmospheric pressure.
i altitude
ii barometric pressure (weather)
3rd, Engine airflow

I say this because I have seen threads where members will literally butt heads over 1-2psi and 5-7 rwhp.

With all the above in mind lets say The manufacturer advertises 7 psi, and customer "A" nets only 6.25psi, was he wronged? Would it find its way to a forum and state that he was robbed of .75 psi, possibly. If it is under estimated, then the results are only a bonus. Kinda like finding a $10 bill in the dryer that you had no idea you lost.

With all the above variables in mind, you have to understand that this stuff needs to be averaged and underestimated.

Mike@PowerHouse · Apr 1, 2009

This was brought to my attention from another board member and I just wanted to throw it up here.

There is one statement I think needs to be clarified slightly:

"Now if we have a day when the bar. press is low we will still see the same "Boost" (because our pressure delta-p is the same) but the actually the air delivered to the motor is less than it would be on a nice, clear, high pressure day."

This is actually incorrect. The blower (or turbo) doesn't product a Delta-P, it produces a pressure RATIO due to compression (either by actual compression inside the compressor or due to the act of positively displacing air into a confined and limited space).

If your blower is producing 14psi of boost on a day when the air pressure is also 14psi, then your pressure ratio is 2:1 and you actually have 28psi absolute pressure in the intake manifold and 14psi absolute pressure on the outside.

Now, if you take that exact same blower and run it WAY high up where the outside air pressure is only 7psi, then your blower would still make that same 2:1 pressure ratio and you would see 14psi absolute on the outlet of the blower, assuming you could keep everything else exactly the same.

A little mind exercise also shows how these things can't be Delta-p devices: If you ran an engine with that produced 14psi of boost, you should be able to run at normally aspirated power levels in space... But as a pressure ratio device, you know that two times zero is still zero and that engine quit running long before it got up to space.

Again thanks for pointing that out

JimIII@JDM · Apr 1, 2009

MickeySaleen said:
Jim, not trying to discredit what your are saying, although a very bold statement right there, but I have seen nothing but bad things about this blower. Numerous customer's cars not getting the results (mostly in the high 300rwhp range on 7-8 psi), not even close to what Edelbrock claimed. I am waiting to hear of a single good experience besides yours with this blower. My Saleen blower is making 458rwhp on 6psi, old technology compared to the edlebrock. My blower is ported, but you can't help but notice this thing is underperforming

And this whole thing about average boost? What the hell is that? Every other blower is dyno'd looking for numbers at peak boost, why is Edelbrock the exception?

Mickey,

Yes it is a BOLD statement but i stand behind it. What your seeing for HP numbers on the internet is a base kit from Edelbrock. Besides my car which has a built 298 motor and our custom tuning. Now your car has a stock motor but it too has an aftermarket tune. Not the Base Saleen tune like in a 475 kit that only makes 395-400 RWHP on Twin Screw with 7 psi boost. If your only seeing 6 psi boost its from your port work. Boost is a measure of restriciton. If you ported the blower and created better air flow you get less restriction!!!! Hence your higher HP numbers on less boost! So your old technology Saleen blower is going to make more power than the New technology Edelbrock blower. Rob Simons designed the E Force and is the same guy who designed the Saleen Series VI. He took all the knowledge he learned building the Saleen and one up'd himself with the E-Force kit! The TVS technology gives you more midrange and low end power than a huge Twinscrew blower spinning at a slower RPM. The smaller TVS blower car is going to have more feeling for a STREET car.

The Average boost is what we are seeing for the most part of the run, on the Edelbrock we are seeing the boost climb towards the end of the run.

The Edelbrock is not the exception to this, ive seen this on every Roush TVS blower we have done here too.

Also boost can be influenced by variable cams. If you retard the cams the boost will ramp up.

It is the characteristics of the TVS design that i feel is what builds the peak RPM boost. The harder you spin it RPM wise the more boost it makes.

JimIII@JDM

NastyStang113 · Apr 1, 2009

Does anyone have an idea why Tillman and everyone else can't get their kit(s) to work?

Mike@PowerHouse · Apr 1, 2009

NastyStang113 said:
Does anyone have an idea why Tillman and everyone else can't get their kit(s) to work?

I wouldn't even guess. A little data goes a long way. I wish that the folks that had "trouble" could post up logs that had the info we needed to make an accurate decision.

ZmanM3 · Apr 1, 2009

Mike@PowerHouse said:
Just so you guys know I am on here to help spread tech to you guys and maybe get some of you to look at things from a different perspective, this perspective will allow you to have a better understanding of how and why things work like they do.

Here is a link to a post I made in regards to RWHP numbers, hopefully you can understand that they are simply a gauge,
http://s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218000&postcount=30

Boost in PSI is often times wrongly viewed. It is really Intake manifold pressure vs. atmospheric pressure, or manifold pressure delta-p. Because we seldomly know the actual atmospheric pressure we simply refer to manifold pressure as boost.
Superchargers are driven by the crankshaft, which means that the supercharger will always drive at a specific ratio when compared to the crank. This ratio is what determines supercharger speed, this speed is what dictates how much air (CFM) is drawn into and processed by the supercharger. This CFM or volume of air being pumped out of the supercharger creates "boost" or manifold pressure delta-p.
This "boost" is actually the engines reluctancy to accept a given volume of air. This can be realized in a case where someone may add ported heads, cam and stroker kit to a supercharged angine, if the pullies remained unchanged you will actually see the "boost" drop. Is it because the supercharger is delivering less air?, no. It is simply because the engine is more accepting to the volume of air being delivered by the supercharger, remember the blower speed and volume are unchanged because our drive ratio is the same as it were before our stroker/head/cam/ swap.
Some people refer to pullies as "14psi pulley", not the case, the pulley is a given diameter, not a given pressure.

Now if we have a day when the bar. press is low we will still see the same "Boost" (because our pressure delta-p is the same) but the actually the air delivered to the motor is less than it would be on a nice, clear, high pressure day. That is why cars run better in nice weather. This is also why there are weather stations and correction factors built into dyno's. These correction factors are what HELP stabalize the dyno results from day to day.

There are tons of reasons why boost will vary from car to car, here are just a couple,

1st, sensor or gauge calibration.
2nd, Atmospheric pressure.
i altitude
ii barometric pressure (weather)
3rd, Engine airflow

I say this because I have seen threads where members will literally butt heads over 1-2psi and 5-7 rwhp.

With all the above in mind lets say The manufacturer advertises 7 psi, and customer "A" nets only 6.25psi, was he wronged? Would it find its way to a forum and state that he was robbed of .75 psi, possibly. If it is under estimated, then the results are only a bonus. Kinda like finding a $10 bill in the dryer that you had no idea you lost.

With all the above variables in mind, you have to understand that this stuff needs to be averaged and underestimated.

Mike@PowerHouse said:
This was brought to my attention from another board member and I just wanted to throw it up here.

There is one statement I think needs to be clarified slightly:

"Now if we have a day when the bar. press is low we will still see the same "Boost" (because our pressure delta-p is the same) but the actually the air delivered to the motor is less than it would be on a nice, clear, high pressure day."

This is actually incorrect. The blower (or turbo) doesn't product a Delta-P, it produces a pressure RATIO due to compression (either by actual compression inside the compressor or due to the act of positively displacing air into a confined and limited space).

If your blower is producing 14psi of boost on a day when the air pressure is also 14psi, then your pressure ratio is 2:1 and you actually have 28psi absolute pressure in the intake manifold and 14psi absolute pressure on the outside.

Now, if you take that exact same blower and run it WAY high up where the outside air pressure is only 7psi, then your blower would still make that same 2:1 pressure ratio and you would see 14psi absolute on the outlet of the blower, assuming you could keep everything else exactly the same.

A little mind exercise also shows how these things can't be Delta-p devices: If you ran an engine with that produced 14psi of boost, you should be able to run at normally aspirated power levels in space... But as a pressure ratio device, you know that two times zero is still zero and that engine quit running long before it got up to space.

Again thanks for pointing that out

JimIII@JDM said:
Mickey,

Yes it is a BOLD statement but i stand behind it. What your seeing for HP numbers on the internet is a base kit from Edelbrock. Besides my car which has a built 298 motor and our custom tuning. Now your car has a stock motor but it too has an aftermarket tune. Not the Base Saleen tune like in a 475 kit that only makes 395-400 RWHP on Twin Screw with 7 psi boost. If your only seeing 6 psi boost its from your port work. Boost is a measure of restriciton. If you ported the blower and created better air flow you get less restriction!!!! Hence your higher HP numbers on less boost! So your old technology Saleen blower is going to make more power than the New technology Edelbrock blower. Rob Simons designed the E Force and is the same guy who designed the Saleen Series VI. He took all the knowledge he learned building the Saleen and one up'd himself with the E-Force kit! The TVS technology gives you more midrange and low end power than a huge Twinscrew blower spinning at a slower RPM. The smaller TVS blower car is going to have more feeling for a STREET car.

The Average boost is what we are seeing for the most part of the run, on the Edelbrock we are seeing the boost climb towards the end of the run.

The Edelbrock is not the exception to this, ive seen this on every Roush TVS blower we have done here too.

Also boost can be influenced by variable cams. If you retard the cams the boost will ramp up.

It is the characteristics of the TVS design that i feel is what builds the peak RPM boost. The harder you spin it RPM wise the more boost it makes.

JimIII@JDM

Thanks for the great info guys!

explict · Apr 2, 2009

I'm curious to know what you would get with a "10psi kit" are you going to see 12psi? Your motor wont be too happy about that.

I'm also curious as to why the boost stays at 5.5psi for so long and then shoots up to 7.5psi.

MickeySaleen · Apr 2, 2009

JimIII@JDM said:
Mickey,

Yes it is a BOLD statement but i stand behind it. What your seeing for HP numbers on the internet is a base kit from Edelbrock. Besides my car which has a built 298 motor and our custom tuning. Now your car has a stock motor but it too has an aftermarket tune. Not the Base Saleen tune like in a 475 kit that only makes 395-400 RWHP on Twin Screw with 7 psi boost. If your only seeing 6 psi boost its from your port work. Boost is a measure of restriciton. If you ported the blower and created better air flow you get less restriction!!!! Hence your higher HP numbers on less boost! So your old technology Saleen blower is going to make more power than the New technology Edelbrock blower. Rob Simons designed the E Force and is the same guy who designed the Saleen Series VI. He took all the knowledge he learned building the Saleen and one up'd himself with the E-Force kit! The TVS technology gives you more midrange and low end power than a huge Twinscrew blower spinning at a slower RPM. The smaller TVS blower car is going to have more feeling for a STREET car.

The Average boost is what we are seeing for the most part of the run, on the Edelbrock we are seeing the boost climb towards the end of the run.

The Edelbrock is not the exception to this, ive seen this on every Roush TVS blower we have done here too.

Also boost can be influenced by variable cams. If you retard the cams the boost will ramp up.

It is the characteristics of the TVS design that i feel is what builds the peak RPM boost. The harder you spin it RPM wise the more boost it makes.

JimIII@JDM

I understand how a ported blower works in regards to boost, but my initial claim, as also stated by nastystang, is that I havent seen anyone else get the results they wanted from this blower besides you. Maybe you guys are the only ones that can make this thing work how it is supposed to? IDK, I hope Edelbrock can figure out its issues so we can see what it can really do on the stock motor. But from where I am sitting, it hasn't done anything remotely impressive on the stock motor.

Jim, have you raced/driven many high powered mustangs with a different blowers other than a Saleen and a Edelbrock on a stroked, built motor? Like a Whipple, Kenne Bell or a Techco? If you have, and you still agree with your above statement, then that is great news. If you havent experienced 650+rwhp cars with these other blowers, that statement doesn't hold water IMO.

For me, I cant say what blower is best because I have only driven/rode in high horsepower whipple, procharged and saleen cars...Out of those, I like the pull of the Saleen the best...but I have never driven an Edelbrock or Techco powered car so I cannot make the claim that one is the BEST out there...scary statement in my book.

MickeySaleen · Apr 2, 2009

explict said:
I'm curious to know what you would get with a "10psi kit" are you going to see 12psi? Your motor wont be too happy about that.

I'm also curious as to why the boost stays at 5.5psi for so long and then shoots up to 7.5psi.

Well the way this thing seems to build boost, wouldn't anything over their "6psi" kit be dangerous on the stock block as it spikes to 10+psi near 6000rpms?

ROUSH1711 · Apr 2, 2009

Mike@PowerHouse said:
Just so you guys know I am on here to help spread tech to you guys and maybe get some of you to look at things from a different perspective, this perspective will allow you to have a better understanding of how and why things work like they do.

Here is a link to a post I made in regards to RWHP numbers, hopefully you can understand that they are simply a gauge,
http://s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=218000&postcount=30

Boost in PSI is often times wrongly viewed. It is really Intake manifold pressure vs. atmospheric pressure, or manifold pressure delta-p. Because we seldomly know the actual atmospheric pressure we simply refer to manifold pressure as boost.
Superchargers are driven by the crankshaft, which means that the supercharger will always drive at a specific ratio when compared to the crank. This ratio is what determines supercharger speed, this speed is what dictates how much air (CFM) is drawn into and processed by the supercharger. This CFM or volume of air being pumped out of the supercharger creates "boost" or manifold pressure delta-p.
This "boost" is actually the engines reluctancy to accept a given volume of air. This can be realized in a case where someone may add ported heads, cam and stroker kit to a supercharged angine, if the pullies remained unchanged you will actually see the "boost" drop. Is it because the supercharger is delivering less air?, no. It is simply because the engine is more accepting to the volume of air being delivered by the supercharger, remember the blower speed and volume are unchanged because our drive ratio is the same as it were before our stroker/head/cam/ swap.
Some people refer to pullies as "14psi pulley", not the case, the pulley is a given diameter, not a given pressure.

Now if we have a day when the bar. press is low we will still see the same "Boost" (because our pressure delta-p is the same) but the actually the air delivered to the motor is less than it would be on a nice, clear, high pressure day. That is why cars run better in nice weather. This is also why there are weather stations and correction factors built into dyno's. These correction factors are what HELP stabalize the dyno results from day to day.

There are tons of reasons why boost will vary from car to car, here are just a couple,

1st, sensor or gauge calibration.
2nd, Atmospheric pressure.
i altitude
ii barometric pressure (weather)
3rd, Engine airflow

I say this because I have seen threads where members will literally butt heads over 1-2psi and 5-7 rwhp.

With all the above in mind lets say The manufacturer advertises 7 psi, and customer "A" nets only 6.25psi, was he wronged? Would it find its way to a forum and state that he was robbed of .75 psi, possibly. If it is under estimated, then the results are only a bonus. Kinda like finding a $10 bill in the dryer that you had no idea you lost.

With all the above variables in mind, you have to understand that this stuff needs to be averaged and underestimated.

Thank you very much for the tech!
Many of us sometimes cant get enough :clap:

JimIII@JDM · Apr 2, 2009

MickeySaleen said:
I understand how a ported blower works in regards to boost, but my initial claim, as also stated by nastystang, is that I havent seen anyone else get the results they wanted from this blower besides you. Maybe you guys are the only ones that can make this thing work how it is supposed to? IDK, I hope Edelbrock can figure out its issues so we can see what it can really do on the stock motor. But from where I am sitting, it hasn't done anything remotely impressive on the stock motor.

Jim, have you raced/driven many high powered mustangs with a different blowers other than a Saleen and a Edelbrock on a stroked, built motor? Like a Whipple, Kenne Bell or a Techco? If you have, and you still agree with your above statement, then that is great news. If you havent experienced 650+rwhp cars with these other blowers, that statement doesn't hold water IMO.

For me, I cant say what blower is best because I have only driven/rode in high horsepower whipple, procharged and saleen cars...Out of those, I like the pull of the Saleen the best...but I have never driven an Edelbrock or Techco powered car so I cannot make the claim that one is the BEST out there...scary statement in my book.

Mickey, Buddy...You have seen Livernois and Powerhouse both post they got the advertised gains and they and the customers were happy. So why do you keep saying only we made power and can make power with these?

Im sure you understand the dynamics of a ported supercharger but i dont know why you were trying to compare your Saleen blower when its apples to oranges away from the Base Edelbrock.

We build many cars here, not just Saleen powered cars and now my Edelbrock. We've been building high performance street cars for over 10 years. I have driven countless cars with 400,500,600, 700+ HP!! I know what they feel like with a Whipple, Kenne Bell, Saleen, Roush, Edelbrock, Vortech, Procharger, Turbo, Nitrous, you name it. Except a TechCo because we have not gotten one yet. When we do a 500HP, 600HP, 700HP tune on one I gaurantee will feel the same as the others, FAST AS FCUK!! When you get over 500 HP its more power than most need for the street anyways. You have to build the motor, get custom tuning, and have a fuel system that will support the power. We are now out of the realm of a base kit.

What im saying here is for a base kit to bolt on and keep you under 450 HP for the stock fuel pump, stock engine, and a conservative everyday tune. Something that about 80% of the FI S197 community is looking. The Edelbrock is a very nice kit. MORE THAN ONE SHOP HAS PROVED THIS!

And when i say BEST option for a street car im taking into consideration HP/TQ Levels, Installation, Price, driveability, fit, and finish. Thats my opinion, im entitled to it like you are yours. My opinion is based on my experience of hundreds of cars we have turned out here already since the induction of the s197 mustang.

JimIII

Mick · Apr 2, 2009

Hey Junior I like the F,A,F. Calm down buddy! And you also hit the nail on the head... 500 plus rwhp for street use, is more then you need, amen to that. But it is fun.

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