Valvetrain/cam/cam phaser advice

[Mach2burnout]

Just looking for help making some decisions on repairing/upgrading my valvetrain.

I have recently started experiencing some rattling or clattering upon startup (cold only). The sound is in the valve covers, not down in the crankcase. After 10-20 seconds it quiets down and all is normal. I have not experienced any drivability problems from this, but it drives me crazy. I cannot stand an engine that clatters, whether it be on start up or while driving. I have to fix this. So...

This is what I have done so far:

Pulled the valve/cam covers and inspected visually. I could not see any abnormal wear on the cams, or slack in the adjusters/followers so I put it back together. Then I drained the oil into a clean drain pan, then strained it. No metal particles were found. I do not have proper tool to cut open the oil filter, but I have a friend that does and I sealed it up in a zip lock until I can go out to his shop.
I put fresh oil back with different brand of oil filter(wix) and the noise persists.

Here is my plan:

Remove all the followers and valve lash adjusters and examine them closely for damage. (I will be installing new adjusters and followers no matter the outcome of the inspection).
While I have it disassembled I plan to upgrade the valve springs as the stockers seem to give up at a pretty low rpm and I tend to rev an engine pretty hard.

I have FRPP HR cams and plan to keep them! Period!
42k miles on the car w/mods in my sig.

Now to my question(s):

1) What springs would be the best to work with my cams?

2) Should I change the phasers while I have it torn down? This is about 3-350 more bucks that I really don't want to spend unless I need to.

3) Is there anything else that I should look for/at while I have it apart?

4) Is this the correct part number for the lash adjuster/follower kit? M-6529-3V



I been searching and have not found the answers I'm looking for so any help/advice would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[isthatguy]

Does yours sound like this?
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102202

im in the same boat, i think the part number you listed is the upgraded version. Atleast thats what I get when reading the description on Americanmuscle.com

 

[Mach2burnout]

Does yours sound like this?
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102202

im in the same boat, i think the part number you listed is the upgraded version. Atleast thats what I get when reading the description on Americanmuscle.com

Nope, mine is not nearly that loud. The noise in mine starts about 1/4 the volume of yours, and only last until oil pressure is fully up, like lash adjuster leak down. Yours sounds like something is actually already broken.

I have ordered the follower/adjuster kit. My main thing now is what springs to go with if at all.

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

Time to trade to a 5.0!!!

 

[BruceH]

26113 comp valve springs will allow you to keep the phasers active. A stronger spring won't play well with them. Look into the frpp timing kit. It comes with phasers, bolts, tensioners, chains, guides, etc. for $280.

The clatter could be a few different things. It could be a leaky tensioner, lifter, phaser, or something else.

 

[8306gt]

26113 comp valve springs will allow you to keep the phasers active. A stronger spring won't play well with them. Look into the frpp timing kit. It comes with phasers, bolts, tensioners, chains, guides, etc. for $280.

The clatter could be a few different things. It could be a leaky tensioner, lifter, phaser, or something else.

I would agree with using the FRPP parts but they can be had for less than $280, I just bought the FRPP timing kit for $250 and the FRPP follower and lash adjusters for $225 from Tommie Vaughan Ford last week. The only thing you will need to buy extra is phaser bolt as they are not included in the kit.

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

Lmk Kyle if you need some help. We can use my shop if you want.

 

[Mach2burnout]

Time to trade to a 5.0!!!

Not gonna happen! 1. Mine is paid for. 2. I have a new truck to pay for. 3. 5.0s are Fugly!! Sorry man I just can't bring myself to like the looks of the 10-13s. I have considered the 5.0 swap to get the engine but, man for the 10k plus to do it just don't work for me.

26113 comp valve springs will allow you to keep the phasers active. A stronger spring won't play well with them. Look into the frpp timing kit. It comes with phasers, bolts, tensioners, chains, guides, etc. for $280.

The clatter could be a few different things. It could be a leaky tensioner, lifter, phaser, or something else.

Wow, too many variables! Thanks Bruce for the info. You always have valuable input.

Is lockouts or limiters something I should look into? I haven't seen anyone running them with the FRPP cams.

I would agree with using the FRPP parts but they can be had for less than $280, I just bought the FRPP timing kit for $250 and the FRPP follower and lash adjusters for $225 from Tommie Vaughan Ford last week. The only thing you will need to buy extra is phaser bolt as they are not included in the kit.

Wow, wish I would have waited to order the lash adjuster/followers. I gave 280 for them. Thanks for the info and prices.

Lmk Kyle if you need some help. We can use my shop if you want.

Your shop is way too clean for me man! LOL! I will be tearing it down one night this week and I may be calling for some help. Thanks a bunch.



So, what I'm understanding at this time is I need to change the following:

Lash adjusters/followers
Timing chains/phasers/adjusters/guides, etc.
Valve springs
Check cam, etc. for wear and replace as needed.
Phaser bolts
Necessary gaskets, etc.

 

[BruceH]

I would agree with using the FRPP parts but they can be had for less than $280, I just bought the FRPP timing kit for $250 and the FRPP follower and lash adjusters for $225 from Tommie Vaughan Ford last week. The only thing you will need to buy extra is phaser bolt as they are not included in the kit.

Add in the phaser bolt cost and you are at $280. The kit comes with phaser bolts. http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=22746

Not gonna happen! 1. Mine is paid for. 2. I have a new truck to pay for. 3. 5.0s are Fugly!! Sorry man I just can't bring myself to like the looks of the 10-13s. I have considered the 5.0 swap to get the engine but, man for the 10k plus to do it just don't work for me.



Wow, too many variables! Thanks Bruce for the info. You always have valuable input.

Is lockouts or limiters something I should look into? I haven't seen anyone running them with the FRPP cams.




Wow, wish I would have waited to order the lash adjuster/followers. I gave 280 for them. Thanks for the info and prices.



Your shop is way too clean for me man! LOL! I will be tearing it down one night this week and I may be calling for some help. Thanks a bunch.



So, what I'm understanding at this time is I need to change the following:

Lash adjusters/followers
Timing chains/phasers/adjusters/guides, etc.
Valve springs
Check cam, etc. for wear and replace as needed.

Limiters aren't needed with a cam that has less than .5 lift. Their only purpose is to prevent piston to valve contact. Lockouts are used when stiffer springs like comp 26125 or TFS/Livernois are used because they kill phasers with the extra load.

It could be a lot of things but it's probably something that gets pumped up with oil like you have already said. The oil filter has an anti drain back valve, right?

 

[Mach2burnout]

Bruce thanks for the tutorial on the phaser limiters and lockouts.

I got new phaser bolts already, I just didn't list them. Will edit that post for future references.

I'm just not finding that timing chain set for $280 or less. Everywhere I look its $350-375. Even those links y'all have posted. Tommie Vaughn's website doesn't even list them and the frpp link from there lists them at $375 iirc. Is this an order I need to make via phone to get that price? Even at freedom racing they're $355 iirc.

Oil filter is supposed to have the anti drain back valve. (Wix) I really didn't realize there any screw on filters still made with out them.


Sent from iPhone

 

[8306gt]

Add in the phaser bolt cost and you are at $280. The kit comes with phaser bolts. http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=22746

Bruce that is not a picture of the actual FRPP kit, it does not come with phasher bolts it does however come with new bolts for the tensioners, and guides, as well as guide pins for the guides. You are correct though by the time you purchase two phaser bolts it will have spent at least $280.

 

[ArtQ]

Add in the phaser bolt cost and you are at $280. The kit comes with phaser bolts. http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=22746

Bruce that is not a picture of the actual FRPP kit, it does not come with phasher bolts it does however come with new bolts for the tensioners, and guides, as well as guide pins for the guides. You are correct though by the time you purchase two phaser bolts it will have spent at least $280.

M 6004 463V does come with the phaser bolts. I have a kit here.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=M-6004-463V

 

[dysan]

Add in the phaser bolt cost and you are at $280. The kit comes with phaser bolts. http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=22746

Bruce that is not a picture of the actual FRPP kit, it does not come with phasher bolts it does however come with new bolts for the tensioners, and guides, as well as guide pins for the guides. You are correct though by the time you purchase two phaser bolts it will have spent at least $280.

My kit came with new phaser bolts....

 

[8306gt]

M 6004 463V does come with the phaser bolts. I have a kit here.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=M-6004-463V

I suppose I got cheated then because the M 6004 463V I bought from one of the largest FRPP dealers in the country did not come with phaser bolts. In the box was 2 phasers, 2 chains, 2 plastic body tensioners, crank gear, right and left guides (4 pieces total), 2 guides pins, 4 guide bolts, 4 tensioner bolts, front cover gaskets (3 pieces total), and the front crank seal. No phaser bolts or crank position trigger wheel so either the kit has changed or Ford is not very good about how they package their parts.

 

[ArtQ]

Yup, I got all that plus the phaser bolts

 

[Mach2burnout]

And where can I get this kit for $280. I have yet to find one for that price. None of the links that have been posted produce this kit for $280.

Thanks for all y'all's help and comments. I can't believe I'm gonna have to spend close to $1000 on the valve train of an engine that has 42k miles on it. This is ridiculous.


Sent from iPhone

 

[ArtQ]

And where can I get this kit for $280. I have yet to find one for that price. None of the links that have been posted produce this kit for $280.

Thanks for all y'all's help and comments. I can't believe I'm gonna have to spend close to $1000 on the valve train of an engine that has 42k miles on it. This is ridiculous.


Sent from iPhone

Did you check this link? http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=M-6004-463V

and this link? http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-3v-rocker-set-0510.html

 

[BruceH]

And where can I get this kit for $280. I have yet to find one for that price. None of the links that have been posted produce this kit for $280.

Thanks for all y'all's help and comments. I can't believe I'm gonna have to spend close to $1000 on the valve train of an engine that has 42k miles on it. This is ridiculous.


Sent from iPhone

Shoot a pm to 19COBRA93. He is a Ford parts dealer in his regular job. I said around $280 because that's what they are on ebay. I may of paid less when I bought them from Sam, I'll know for sure when the parts get here in a few days. I made a largish purchase for my upcoming build and can't remember all the prices. He sells everything for the same price as Tousley.

 

[rayS197]

How many miles are on your car? Look on the F150 forums and you will find a lot of threads on the issue. The Ford tech video states the cold start rattle are leaky tensioners but on the F150 forums the members are seeing it to be cams/ or phasers and just replacing the complete timing set like others have posted. My 04 F150 makes that startup noise with @ 98k miles and will be fixed in the cooler months coming. Tony on this forum replaced the timing components on his F150 3V due to noises like stated and no more issues for him. Depending on the miles and if you are keeping the VCT I would replace the Solenoids. JMO

 

[michael.konor]

http://www.levittownfordsupercenter.com/ford-racing-camshaft-drive-p-1208.html

$242 in stock. I've bought from them before and it was delivered within 5 days.