Might be go big or go home time on my '06

[GlassTop09]

but she seems like she's got more low end torque with these cams and the stock intake manifold back on.

Yeah, I noted this myself.............am curious............are you using the CMCV's w\ your OEM IM as well?

 

[cavero]

Yeah, I noted this myself.............am curious............are you using the CMCV's w\ your OEM IM as well?

Yessir, I read somewhere that the CMCV's were there to help with low end torque (sort of like putting your thumb over the end of a hose) so I wanted to leave them in to help as much when the centri blower goes in next year

 

[GlassTop09]

Yessir, I read somewhere that the CMCV's were there to help with low end torque (sort of like putting your thumb over the end of a hose) so I wanted to leave them in to help as much when the centri blower goes in next year

Thanks for the response..........I knew you also was using the FRPP IM prior & was curious.

You probably saw Four Eyes video on this.......................

FYI............I also ran A\B testing on these (I still had my CMCV\actuator assembly intact......swapped out my Steeda CMDP's & put the CMCV's back on IM & ran A\B tests using same tune as ran w\ CMDP's) on my 4.6L in April along w\ the patent data\drawings from Ford on these along w\ the cyl head port\CC design to see 1. if the claims were true & 2. if true, some idea of how much vs CMDP's.

Found that the claims made by Ford are indeed true, but there's more to this than what most think. The exact phrase should be "they help w\ part throttle low RPM engine TQ output when the CMCV's are closed" due to regaining low RPM IM runner charge velocity (airspeed) that is lost due to the intake port in cyl head shortening the IM runner taper away from the back of the intake valves due to its size (w\o these the air charge velocity will start to slow down once it leaves the IM runner to accommodate the 2 intake valves. High airspeed or velocity is needed to provide adequate intake A\F mixing of fuel w\ air in a port feed EFI system to facilitate full complete A\F combustion, but also exhaust gas reversion from the moment the intake valves open due to Pi (vacuum) being lower than Pc (atmosphere) from the TB restricting airflow causing IM pressure to drop below the exhaust pressure & only will stop backflowing when the Pi is higher than Pc (either when the exhaust valve physically closes OR the negative exhaust pressure wave returns off initial exhaust valve opening from exhaust blowdown......whichever happens 1st). It is this exhaust reversion that also lowers the A\F % that enters the CC thus will affect A\F combustion efficiency at low engine RPM's, lowering TQ output & will affect it even more if the A\F & inert exhaust gas isn't thoroughly mixed during the intake stroke due to the cyl head being an open design (means the cyl head has no quench area for the piston to further agitate the A\F & exhaust mix during compression\ignition) causing hot pockets in CC enticing detonation. This is a natural quirk of valve overlap in a NA configured engine.........no way around it.

There is always a con for every pro in engine design...............

Every camshaft that is ground w\ overlap in it will have some exhaust gas reversion occurring during the exhaust-to-intake stroke cycle during part throttle low RPM operations.......full stop. Designers usually limit the amount of IVO to EVC degree spread to limit the amount of exhaust reversion that does happen (this exhaust reversion is what affects IM vacuum levels) but when you do this, you limit the amount of air mass the engine can process at high RPM........the wider the IVO to EVC degree spread, the more exhaust gas can backflow into the IM due to the IVO occurring when the piston is also still pushing out left over exhaust gasses at the end of the exhaust stroke thus Pi is even more < than Pc......also what causes the crankshaft instability--engine rocking\lope--during idle that all lopey cams have.......but this also improves airmass processing at high RPM operations thus is a balancing act for a cam designer when setting\grinding cam events depending on what the needs\goals are to be achieved.

CMCV's also provide a service during high RPM WOT operations as well when they are open (at high RPM the engine is creating more than enough air charge velocity on its own) by instilling some air turbulence in the airstream to facilitate full A\F (also any exhaust gas that does reverse backward due to high exhaust backpressure) mixing during intake cycle so air\fuel mix fully combusts & eliminate the hot pockets that will cause detonation (what quench is designed to prevent) thus can safely run higher ignition timing for more power.

The results I got from my A\B testing showed all of this........part throttle low RPM TQ output gains were between 5-10 ft-lbs TQ output & at WOT I was able to pick up another 1.5*-2* of ignition timing AND lean out fuel by 2 points before detonation showed back up which gained another 5-7 ft-lbs TQ output at WOT.......using same everything else in same manner tune wise thus IMHO validates Ford & their claims regarding the CMCV's.

Not earth shattering but the differences in results CAN be felt pretty much across the board.

Where the big benefit is at is emissions (from the complete full A\F combustion in each cyl w\o detonation outputting much less HC & CO & NOx to some degree) helping cats to fully process by not overloading them w\ excessive HC & CO from poor combustion efficiency & depending on how much exhaust gas reversion (or EGR.......main goal is NOx reduction) is allowed\used during part throttle low RPM\cruise operations thru VCT settings in these areas of operation......MPG can also be gained. My Mode 6 Cat CE Ratio checks made after every initial tune reflash (fully resets ECU so results are as virgin as can be once the IM Readiness monitors complete thus are solely a result of the tune calibration settings & component operation\condition) showed a 28% reduction in avg CE Ratio (cat efficiency went up.......a good thing especially if in an area that requires vehicle emissions passage for registration thus cats installed).......which validates the improved combustion efficiency (increases overall cyl pressure gain from fully complete A\F burn within the CC) which validates the improved HP\TQ outputs.

So, in short, I'm also back on running the CMCV's in my '08 OEM IM as well w\ the Lunati VooDoo cams & now w\ these FRPP Hot Rod cams & they'll pass an emissions test as well if tested by the real numbers instead of a Fed\CARB certification lookup list.........
Refer to this post I made in this thread some time ago..................https://www.s197forum.com/threads/lunati-voodoo-21270700-camshafts.136257/page-24 post #472.

I just followed up on this since I was planning to install a set of FRPP Hot Rod cams & started researching reasons why these cams reportedly show a tendency to lose part throttle low RPM TQ output...........found that these CMCV's have a fair part in helping these cams retain their part throttle low RPM performance due to their cam profile design in relation to all I typed above..........read the product description on the Ford Performance web site.........the 50 HP gain is quoted to be gained by using a set of ported 3V heads & the stock intake manifold.................that is a tell.

This is also a concern on any aftermarket cam set that focuses on improving mid-range & top end HP\TQ vs the OEM cams as their IVO to EVC crank timing spread is larger & are more advanced than the OEM cams (which has the overlap IVO event happening early enough ahead of the critical 30* BTDC crank angle where the piston is still fairly accelerated pushing exhaust out of the CC on its way to TDC during the exhaust stroke.

I can definitely report that using these CMCV's go a long way into cutting the amount of FRPP HR cam low RPM part throttle TQ loss........among some other things as well.

After all...........Ford DID design all these components................

Provided below is a picture of the very drawing that Ford submitted for patent certification of this 3V's IM CMCV system.................along w\ an IM Readiness result I just pulled last night after final tune revision of these FRPP Hot Rod cams w\ CMCV's flowing thru my CARB-cert MF #5461336 TWC cats for reference..............Catalyst #1 & #2.........these are lopey cams w\ a lot of overlap on a tight LSA that don't have any legal emissions certification attached to them saying they're emissions compliant..............but they sure are achieving it.

A snapshot of some of the value that these Ford 3V CMCV's do bring...............

You're making a good choice to do what you're doing IMHO. As far as using these w\ a centri, I hope that your tuner doesn't use the OEM Ford IMRC opening\closing schedule as is for these CMCV's, or you'll end up breaking these due to trying to force too much air thru them under 3,500 RPM's when they're closed as well as throwing the MAF & subsequent SD calcs off due to the MAF reacting to the closed CMCV plates instead of the TB (sonic air velocity thru the CMCV's smaller openings causing a large deltaP across the blades causing the CMCV shafts to twist & blades break off & the back pressure causing the MAF to stall sending in bad airmass readings that won't match the ETC SD airmass calcs off the TB's open blade angle). I ran into this issue myself in NA config........fixed this by finding the MAF-to CMCV blade load% crossover point then resetting the RPM-to-engine load% schedule settings to open the CMCV's fully when engine loads% exceeded .38 from 1,000-2,250 RPM's (saw low RPM cruising speeds up to 80 MPH stayed within .15 thru .35 load while cruising) & on any low RPM high load accelerations then get fully open by 3,000 RPM's regardless. Once this is done properly, it opens up the tuning capabilities to run more advanced VCT cam timings & gain even more usable HP\TQ but still reap all the benefits from the CMCV's.

The 1 good thing that FI does bring...........it's use does eliminate IVO & EVC exhaust gas reversion during overlap due to Pi > Pc once the TB moves open & by-pass (if TVS FI) closes.

Good luck w\ your setup & I hope you succeed w\ it.

 

[MrBhp]

@GlassTop09 That last post was a really good read. Great information. Thanks!

 

[cavero]

Ditto, I think your post needs its own thread and a Sticky! I've been reading it over a few times. Looks like they're still doing the CMCV's on the Coyotes too, wouldn't have lasted another 15 years if it didn't work.

One of the things I've got to read over again is w/ the cam phaser and lopey cams. Before the engine rebuild, I had phaser limiters, which still allowed 20 deg of movement. Now after the rebuild they're completely locked out.

 

[cavero]

Oh and yeah I'm definitely going to ask them about the CMCV schedule. I've talked to them before about blowers and they've talked about how suddenly shutting the throttle can be really bad, so they're probably aware of it. But I'll definitely bring it up

 

[cavero]

I never thought this was going to keep dragging in like this. Got the car back from the body shop yesterday, they did a good job except they smoothed over the corner on the wheel arch too much and really softened it a lot.


Compare that to the passenger side





They were pretty good about it though, immediately said yep they see it too and to bring it back in a couple weeks and they'll redo it, obviously on their dime.

 

[GlassTop09]

Before the engine rebuild, I had phaser limiters, which still allowed 20 deg of movement. Now after the rebuild they're completely locked out.

HHHhhhhhmmmmmm.........................

One of the things I've got to read over again is w/ the cam phaser and lopey cams.

Please elaborate on this when you can as I'll assume that your builder\tuner had some input into the decision to completely lockout VCT using FI w\ a set of lopey cams...........................curious to know the reasons why when the overwhelming usage case is the opposite w\ this 4.6L 3V........

In the meantime, I recommend this book if you want to learn\know all the skinny on camshaft design, purpose, optimization, optimization using VCT\VVT, etc.

The author is none other than William "Billy" Godbold of Comp Cams fame thus you'll be very hard pressed to find a better, more accurate & reliable source of information\knowledge anywhere concerning camshafts whether NA or FI...............w\ this Ford Modular 3V in particular.

Available on Amazon if interested.......................