Alabama
Car broke at track...need help
- Thread starter GI Joe
- Start date
Alabama
US-1
Banned
I would recommend checking with MV Performance as well. From your list I would only say that Ron at Fox Lake would be worth it. However, Tim and Bart at MV would be a great choice. Tons of experience with modulars and they are close to you. One of the few I'd trust to build one for me. Only other one I would go with is Modular Performance. The Tymensky's are very good. If you call MV or Modular Perf be sure and tell them I sent you.
As far as "which came first...the oil pump or the bearings"..........You really do want to take a long hard look at the thrust bearing since you have a turbo car with a transbrake. Seriously.
As far as "which came first...the oil pump or the bearings"..........You really do want to take a long hard look at the thrust bearing since you have a turbo car with a transbrake. Seriously.
thanks
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ok guys motor is out and apart
turbo looks good and heads and cams too.
short block is trashed
4 spun rod bearings. One ruined rod. 3 cylinder walls look bad. Oil pump is broken. 5 of the 8 top rings have the edges sheared off.
Some things are starting to make sense to me now.
While the car was Saleen S/C'd I had a JDM tune and stock block. Then I put the forged short block in and had the heads done with stock cams. I rana JDM tune for a while during break in. JDM was real busy so I had a tuner from "BAMA" tune the car after I got about 3000 miles on it. On the dyno the car started putting out alittle smoke during the runs. The day after the tuning I went to the track and the car burned the tips off 3 spark plugs from being lean. Noteworthy to mention that the same tuner blew up a friends ( a board members) car a week later by leaning it out and burning a hole in at least one of his pistons. From that day at the track forward, my car has always had excessive blowby. It never had it during the breakin period.
Later I put a turbo in the car and new cars. During the long turbo install and tweaking process I notice one day the my oil pressure gauge stopped workiing. I bought a new sending unit and it worked again but the oil pressure, while ok at cruise and WOT, was only showing 15psi at idle. With just a slight touch of the gas it would go to normal. I chalked it up to the new sender having a variance in the voltage that was different from the old one. Perhaps I missed an important sign there. I learned at age 13 that low oil pressure at idle while otherwise ok was usually bearing ( crank bearings in fact) but I dismissed it due to the timing of the bad sender ( or was it even bad; the gears could have cracked then and only worked partially after that)
But the blowby issue continued to haunt me. MANY of my friend know of this problem and some attributed it to an MMR shortblock. But I insist that the block was tight for a few thousand miles and never pushed a single drop of oil out into the intake. It all started after that tuning session.
When my current tuner, Erik Brooks started tuning this turbo setup, I was upfront with him about it and told him that I believed the car had been hurt from previous tuning and the lean conditions that had occurred on what was supposed to be a safe tune. I let him know so as to remove any monkey from his back so let me make that clear right up front.
So as I tear this motor down I got some answers. Not all but most. Its clear that the damage was not done in one run at the track. It happened over time. Its clear the pump did not brake first. The one bad rod has been hot for a while. The gears in the pump show old breaks and new breaks.
One of 2 things happened. Either the pump was hurt and the bearing started and later went out and finished the pump off...or ( my opinion) based on all the bearing damage throughout, the excessive blowby was pressurizing the crankcase and an oil starvation issue ensued over time. The pump was probably hurt early on. But the breaks in the gears have edges that have shiny mushroomed areas indicating they beat on each other after the fact for a bit...and the way this car shut down its not likely they would look like this.
The back of the pump has no indication that the thrust bearing was displaced at any time...although I caution I've not remove the crank yet so I cant say for sure.
I suppose its possible you could just say it was a crappy loose as a goose MMR motor...but I did not see it that way...usually they will be loose right from the start if thats the case.
Something got the rings so hot the edges have been broken off nearly all the way around the top ring of 5 cylinders. LEAN
I also have no interest in blaming anyone here with this info I'm passing along. I'm looking forward not back . The info I divulged is solely for accurately recreating the events that led to this. There were signs there that I ignored, so I accept full responsibility for it. I did learn in the process that the tuner I had used is full of crap because he really can only tune basic N/A cars( has a bogus reputation and should never be allowed to tune a real high hp car. ) And that his is a piece of crap because to this day never called me about the problem after I initially reported it to him with a phone call from the track right when it happened. I knew in my hear that day that the car had been hurt and it showed evidence of it since.
If anyone knows someone wanting some used part with about 4000 miles on them I'm selling the whole thing for $850 plus shipping.
a Good set of Manley -6.5 cc 9.4:1 forged pistons 2628 material standard bore. Needs rings
6-7 good Manley H beam rods.
A questionable cobra forged crank
APR main studs
A block that probably needs .030 over or perhaps sleeving.
Here are some pics of the damage
turbo looks good and heads and cams too.
short block is trashed
4 spun rod bearings. One ruined rod. 3 cylinder walls look bad. Oil pump is broken. 5 of the 8 top rings have the edges sheared off.
Some things are starting to make sense to me now.
While the car was Saleen S/C'd I had a JDM tune and stock block. Then I put the forged short block in and had the heads done with stock cams. I rana JDM tune for a while during break in. JDM was real busy so I had a tuner from "BAMA" tune the car after I got about 3000 miles on it. On the dyno the car started putting out alittle smoke during the runs. The day after the tuning I went to the track and the car burned the tips off 3 spark plugs from being lean. Noteworthy to mention that the same tuner blew up a friends ( a board members) car a week later by leaning it out and burning a hole in at least one of his pistons. From that day at the track forward, my car has always had excessive blowby. It never had it during the breakin period.
Later I put a turbo in the car and new cars. During the long turbo install and tweaking process I notice one day the my oil pressure gauge stopped workiing. I bought a new sending unit and it worked again but the oil pressure, while ok at cruise and WOT, was only showing 15psi at idle. With just a slight touch of the gas it would go to normal. I chalked it up to the new sender having a variance in the voltage that was different from the old one. Perhaps I missed an important sign there. I learned at age 13 that low oil pressure at idle while otherwise ok was usually bearing ( crank bearings in fact) but I dismissed it due to the timing of the bad sender ( or was it even bad; the gears could have cracked then and only worked partially after that)
But the blowby issue continued to haunt me. MANY of my friend know of this problem and some attributed it to an MMR shortblock. But I insist that the block was tight for a few thousand miles and never pushed a single drop of oil out into the intake. It all started after that tuning session.
When my current tuner, Erik Brooks started tuning this turbo setup, I was upfront with him about it and told him that I believed the car had been hurt from previous tuning and the lean conditions that had occurred on what was supposed to be a safe tune. I let him know so as to remove any monkey from his back so let me make that clear right up front.
So as I tear this motor down I got some answers. Not all but most. Its clear that the damage was not done in one run at the track. It happened over time. Its clear the pump did not brake first. The one bad rod has been hot for a while. The gears in the pump show old breaks and new breaks.
One of 2 things happened. Either the pump was hurt and the bearing started and later went out and finished the pump off...or ( my opinion) based on all the bearing damage throughout, the excessive blowby was pressurizing the crankcase and an oil starvation issue ensued over time. The pump was probably hurt early on. But the breaks in the gears have edges that have shiny mushroomed areas indicating they beat on each other after the fact for a bit...and the way this car shut down its not likely they would look like this.
The back of the pump has no indication that the thrust bearing was displaced at any time...although I caution I've not remove the crank yet so I cant say for sure.
I suppose its possible you could just say it was a crappy loose as a goose MMR motor...but I did not see it that way...usually they will be loose right from the start if thats the case.
Something got the rings so hot the edges have been broken off nearly all the way around the top ring of 5 cylinders. LEAN
I also have no interest in blaming anyone here with this info I'm passing along. I'm looking forward not back . The info I divulged is solely for accurately recreating the events that led to this. There were signs there that I ignored, so I accept full responsibility for it. I did learn in the process that the tuner I had used is full of crap because he really can only tune basic N/A cars( has a bogus reputation and should never be allowed to tune a real high hp car. ) And that his is a piece of crap because to this day never called me about the problem after I initially reported it to him with a phone call from the track right when it happened. I knew in my hear that day that the car had been hurt and it showed evidence of it since.
If anyone knows someone wanting some used part with about 4000 miles on them I'm selling the whole thing for $850 plus shipping.
a Good set of Manley -6.5 cc 9.4:1 forged pistons 2628 material standard bore. Needs rings
6-7 good Manley H beam rods.
A questionable cobra forged crank
APR main studs
A block that probably needs .030 over or perhaps sleeving.
Here are some pics of the damage
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ooopss...let the emotional day get the best of me...thanks
bolted3v
forum member
that fucking stinks. im glad you look forward only joe. looking forward to your next build. 
US-1
Banned
Do you have any way of checking the thrust clearance before removing the crank?
Cali HP Addict
forum member
Hhmmm, I feel for you brother. I am excited for you and your new build also. Your theory sounds spot on IMO.
Dave sorry to see all the damage done , we have been back and forth on our builds for over a year , and I know how much thought has been put into your build as well as mine.
I think your diagnostics of the engine failure is correct. You have the right attitude about it to look forward and move on , we all learn from experiences , and this just makes me know the next build will be that much better .
Talk to you soon I have a busy day today , gotta pick up my fox body parts and drop them off at my buddy's shop were the Fox is at.
Pete
I think your diagnostics of the engine failure is correct. You have the right attitude about it to look forward and move on , we all learn from experiences , and this just makes me know the next build will be that much better .
Talk to you soon I have a busy day today , gotta pick up my fox body parts and drop them off at my buddy's shop were the Fox is at.
Pete
Wow, that sucks. I'm glad your turbos look like they weren't hurt, hopefully the heads prove to be good too.
Eric Brooks
forum member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2009
- Posts
- 166
- Reaction score
- 1
Excellent analysis Dave. Makes you wonder how much power the motor down because it had be hurt all along.
US-1
Banned
From the looks of those pictures......50-ish horsepower or so.
Eric Brooks
forum member
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2009
- Posts
- 166
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Just amazing all of that was going on and the engine acted fine for so long, just had a bit of blow by.
sounds about right
I really want to. Thats part of the reason I left it in. It spins real smooth too. The crank might be alright after all. I'll have to have it checked. Im not going to use it but I would like to be able to sell it. At worst it would need 10/10 or probably 10/0
I think I can thank my lucky stars that it was not a catostrophic failure and put me in the wall. It was like a guardian angel just reached over and switched the key off.
at this point I kow the crank has .011 endplay when checked by hand
US-1
Banned
That's pushing it.
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