My STX 09 autocross future and questions

[Whiskey11]

Greetings S197 forum! Yesterday was our last Solo Points Event at the Lincoln Air Park - Nationals site and we got to run the West Course from the 2012 Solo Nationals which was an absolute blast to run. I haven't shaken that hard from an autocross event since my first two events at LAP-N almost two years ago. Anyway, it gave me the rare opportunity to compare my 09 GT in it's current, very unprepped STX self, to every National level driver in STX on the West course and make a few very large assumptions about how feasible this car will be going forward.

My fastest time yesterday was a 65.197 (5.197 is 1337 speak for S.197 so that is obviously a good sign! ) Which was good for 2nd from DFL. I can't say I'm surprised that it was that far. I was 3.879 seconds off of Bryan Heitkotter's winning 1994 BMW 325is and had I "maintained" that pace to the east course (HUGE assumption considering how busy that course looked and probably was) that would have put me in 40th overall in STX of 51. Not too shabby considering the car only has this on it:

Tokico D-Specs (all groans aside please )
Steeda Sport Springs
Steeda HD Plates (-1.7º camber, 0 toe, +7.5º caster)
Strano 35mm front bar (full stiff)
Strano 25mm rear bar (full stiff)
Fays2 Watts (pivot bolt slammed to the bottom hole, not wise, but I did it =\)
245/45/18 Dunlop Star Specs

There is A LOT left to do but I have NO IDEA how much time is realistically able to be dropped from maxing the car. The huge time cutters are the 265/40/18 RS3's I have planned for next year. Unless I run into a pile of cash that will be on the stock, heavy wheels, but eventually I'd like to run something like the TSW Nurburgrings in 18x9 which weigh 19.7lbs each and don't cost a fortune.

The other big one is the rear diff. My stock T-Lok was rebuilt with the stock style clutch packs about a month ago and had one event on it (on asphalt) going into yesterday's event so it should be pretty tight still. I'd love to go to the WaveTrac unit or DPI Platinum.

I would like to find a little more negative camber in the suspension. Stock the alignment was dead on side to side and fully maxed out at the Steeda HD plates one side was -2.0º and the other -1.6º so somewhere tolerance stack moved the camber off on one side and I would LOVE to have -2.0º on both corners or more. I'm not sure how to achieve that aside from camber bolts or a different set of camber plates. It may be prudent to just switch camber plates to a proper camber plate.

Maybe a more prudent idea would be to buy some coilovers. I would LOVE to splurge on a set of AST 4150's with the Vorshlag plates, digressive pistons and 400 front springs and 200 rear springs as this car is a DD I don't want to get TOO aggressive on the spring rates. I don't foresee this happening next year at all with the tires, wheels and diff taking priority in my limited budget. Another option here is the Ground Control set using the Koni's. This is obviously a little more limiting and wont quire have the same effect as the AST's but it is a lot better than the Steeda Sports I'm running now with the D-Specs.


Eventually I would like to start focusing on weight. I have plans of finding out what the curbweight of MY car is as a baseline then start pulling weight. As optioned, with 3.55's, full leather interior, interior lighting package, GT comfort package (heated and power seats on both sides) is probably the heaviest way to get an 09 short of the glass roof option or a convertible. I'm glad I have neither! I'm estimating right now 3550lbs with the 5 speed manual and a 1/4 tank of gas and no trunk junk. That is probably an over estimate but better to err on the side of more than less. Losing the heated and power seats is going to be huge. STX allows seats, with hardware to weigh 25lbs. The Corbeau (yeah I know) FX1 Pro weigh 25lbs WITH brackets and because I'm not a small guy I will need the wide seats which I imagine weigh a little more for some cushion room. I'm seeing the leather power driver seat without heat is weighing 57lbs so I used that as the base line for my weight reduction spreadsheet and is probably an underestimate of the weight of the stock seats. Needless to say there is about 65lbs of weight just in the seats that can be shed.

The other big weight reduction is going to be at the wheels/tires. The TSW Nurburgrings with 265/40/18 RS3's weigh a scant 48.5lbs. The stock wheels with 245/45/18 star specs weigh in close to 56-57lbs. That is 30 lbs, and all unsprung weight and rotating weight to boot!

The Exhaust is another area of concern. I have no idea how much the Roush Extreme Catback exhaust weighs (yeah yeah, Catbacks don't do shit, blah blah blah, I like the sound so BITE ME! ) but considering it is basically two resonators in the cat back and two straight through pipes where the mufflers were, I'm guessing it's a good bit lighter than stock. I'm estimating about 30lbs lighter (this is about the difference in removing the mufflers all together).

The last place to easily lose some weight is the Battery. The stock battery is 32lbs, most aftermarket batteries are between 14 and 16lbs. I hope to find one that I can run year round or I will need to invest in a battery tender for the stock battery during the summer and switch batteries when I switch back to stock for the winter.

I'm not sure of any other major areas to lose weight and with those items removed and the trunk junk removed and the added weight of the Watts over the PHB, the car would weigh in at about 3385lbs if the 3550lbs is accurate curbweight. Maybe a little less. The idiot behind the wheel could use to cut some of his 280lb curbweight too and that weight added to the weight above still puts the car over 3650lbs. I should really put my butt on a treadmill!


The last area of time gain is Power. I'm thinking between CAI, UDP's, Longtubes, high flow cats and a tune that I should be around 325 RWHP and 335 RWTRQ. That is probably a lot more than it will actually be but I can dream right? I really don't think this will kill that much time and may cause more problems than it solves. I don't know to be honest.


SO my question to you guys is how much time do you think that will all remove on a National level course like the West course was? A huge X factor is the driver. I'm only 2 years into autocrossing so very much still virgin and a lot of this is all the driver. Assuming the driver remains constant (I'm hoping to improve) what do you think the rest of that would all achieve in reducing time? I doubt highly that there is 3.879 seconds in the car and driver. Maybe. I'm currently processing the videos from the event but sadly the fastest run's video doesn't do a good job of showing the line through the course and my second camera died that normally shows that angle. I think 2.5 seconds sounds possible with those changes. That would put the car in trophies at Nationals but I'm being told by others, 1.5 is more reasonable. Granted those guys are all Mustang nay-sayers!

Thanks for reading! I hope to have the videos uploaded before tomorrow.

EDIT: Videos! Turn your sound off, my GoPro's sound SUCKS and makes horrible noises and my secondary camera died after run #1 and I haven't pulled the video from it yet.

Run #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnKKhyLQSjk

Run #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNtnDHNx-PM

Run #3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOGdPt5Jqgg

Run #4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=693EXb_M5R0

Run #5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4HLjvuYVkI

 

[ct07gt]

I am not familiar with the rules, but a one piece driveshaft could be a place to lose some weight.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think I've read where grip is roughly proportional to the 0.7 power of weight. So if you could maintain the car right at the limit, a 165 lb weight loss (4.5%) could buy you about 3.1% grip. A 3.1% increase in grip suggests a 3.1% increase in acceleration (whether accelerating, braking, or cornering), which then correlates to about a 1.5% reduction in time (to low 64.x). I suspect that represents a limiting improvement based on weight and doesn't consider things like the 4.5% less weight (some of which is not sprung) at a 3.1% greater "mu" on operating camber.


Norm

 

[Whiskey11]

I am not familiar with the rules, but a one piece driveshaft could be a place to lose some weight.

Unfortunately driveshafts, flywheels, and anything in the engine are out of the question for lightening or even balancing. The STX rules are pretty basic, I can do SOME things, but not much. I know I left brakes out of above but from what I'm seeing, OEM style blanks from the aftermarket still weigh 19ish pounds so the only way to get less is to go to something extremely expensive.

I think I've read where grip is roughly proportional to the 0.7 power of weight. So if you could maintain the car right at the limit, a 165 lb weight loss (4.5%) could buy you about 3.1% grip. A 3.1% increase in grip suggests a 3.1% increase in acceleration (whether accelerating, braking, or cornering), which then correlates to about a 1.5% reduction in time (to low 64.x). I suspect that represents a limiting improvement based on weight and doesn't consider things like the 4.5% less weight (some of which is not sprung) at a 3.1% greater "mu" on operating camber.


Norm

A reduction in time is a reduction in time. Weight is one of the harder places to quantify and like you said that 165lb figure includes a reduction in 30lbs of rotational and unsprung weight so the effects might be a larger reduction in time. The one I'm interested the most in is the effect of 20mm more tire on each corner (from 245 to 265) and a slight change in tire compound.

Then what about the diff? I hear there is a reduction in time there? Maybe Sam could quantify that since he has the most experience with various differentials. Grassroots Motorsports had an article in their "Pony" issue (sorry I don't have the magazine in front of me) with their STR Miata between the stock Torsen T2 and the OS Geiken diff and the stock Torsen still ran consistently faster times even if they preferred the OS Geiken for power delivery in the sweepers. The WaveTrac interests me from a DD standpoint. My car sadly sees winter duty (reverting back to stock for Winter) and any standard gear diff sounds like it would just be a tire killer in the winter if I ever saw wheel spin.

Anyway, thanks guys for the responses! Keep them a coming!

 

[zquez]

Ground control sells a coil-over conversion for your D-Specs. That and their cc plates should give you the benefit of customizing spring rates and maybe even some more neg camber, but you'll still have the same dampening. It runs about 400 and the cc plate is 350 I believe. So coilovers for half the price pretty much.

You could save some weight taking off the faux hood scoop!

 

[zquez]

Two piece rotors would help a lot with the weight as well.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

Seats are a big area to save weight in ST. So is exhaust. You already mentioned wheel and tire. Finally, there is de-optioning.

You're right though that driver skill is going to be the biggest improvement. Get thee to a few Evo schools.

 

[Whiskey11]

Ground control sells a coil-over conversion for your D-Specs. That and their cc plates should give you the benefit of customizing spring rates and maybe even some more neg camber, but you'll still have the same dampening. It runs about 400 and the cc plate is 350 I believe. So coilovers for half the price pretty much.

You could save some weight taking off the faux hood scoop!

Two piece rotors would help a lot with the weight as well.

Yeah, I'm not sure that doing a conversion with the D-Specs is worth it. Steeda sells a similar kit for the D-specs but I'm really skeptical that the D-Specs will be able to provide the damping necessary for 400lb front springs and autocrossing. I also wonder how poorly the car would ride in that condition as well.

Faux hood scoop is staying. I like it up there as it distinguishes my car from the 9000 V6, Dark Candy Apple Red 2009's with the 45 year anniversary badges.

I'm looking for a set of two piece rotors to fit the stock brakes but I'm not finding any. I'll keep looking but it looks like it will cost over $800 for just the fronts for a very small reduction in weight. Switching to Brembos was at one time a consideration. We will see if that ever happens. Big money, more weight for not a lot of gain in autocross. If I ever get serious about roadcourse work they will be put on but right now track days are out of my price range and comfort zone.

Seats are a big area to save weight in ST. So is exhaust. You already mentioned wheel and tire. Finally, there is de-optioning.

You're right though that driver skill is going to be the biggest improvement. Get thee to a few Evo schools.

Indeed! I wish I knew how much the leather heated and power seats weigh. The "How much does it weigh" thread in the 4.6L 3V section says 57lbs per seat for the leather power seats but I'm sure the heater stuff adds more. I used that number and the resulting "drop" in weight was basically 65lbs. Pretty substantial weight reduction!

Because this car is also my DD, I'd like to avoid de-optioning. I like the car as it is and I'm willing to make some changes for performance like to the seats, springs/dampers and a little loss in MPG for more power but removing the options that are a pain in the butt to change back should I ever sell this car are a no-go. I'm not going to rip out my "premium" dash for a base dash to save a few ounces if you catch my drift! Really I think the only options on the car that contribute any real weight will already be changed out (seats being power/leather/heated) and the remaining options are chasing a few ounces of weight (interior lighting package, shaker 500).

Seat time IS important though and that is always been one of my goals and it happens to be easy to get a lot of. I have ZERO expectation of going to a National tour and winning or trophying any time soon. Evo would be great! They were going to have one in Lincoln this year but they didn't have enough people registered to go through with it. I will have to travel to get to one. Aside from that there is always the Test'n'Tunes here locally for getting seat time but it lacks instruction from those that know.

I'm curious Dave, how big of a time impact do you think tires, diff, power, and weight reduction will make in times? Is 2.5 seconds a realistic expectation or should I be expecting less?

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I'm curious Dave, how big of a time impact do you think tires, diff, power, and weight reduction will make in times? Is 2.5 seconds a realistic expectation or should I be expecting less?

I think that's a reasonable expectation.

 

[Sam Strano]

Where do you go next???? This is where I differ from most. Instead of throwing parts at the car because "this is better". I think it's critical to determine what the car does well, and what you'd like to see it do better. And please don't say "I want it to handle better", yeah I know... everyone says that and it means nothing because it's not in any way specific to actually moving in a direction. You like wanting to pay less taxes means nothing unless there is a way to make it happen.

I think in STX power is the least of your issues. I don't know why you set you Watts all the way down, or the bars all the way stiff, etc. I'm not saying it's wrong per se, just wanting to know how you ended up there, if it was testing or throwing stuff and seeing what stuck.

I think a real differential is key. I think as much rubber as you can get on there is key. I think getting weight out is key. Street tires work better on lighter cars. In the end while I firmly believe the car can trophy in STX, it's not likely to win it. So you also want to keep your eye on ESP rules as well, the car CAN win there. A customer of mine came from AZ with a mostly STX prepped car (and in fact my old personal Fays2 off my 2007 GT) and that car finished 2nd, and it's not got headers, a light flywheel, nothing actually SP beyond wheels and tires. Much like I had my 2011 and was competitive with (until the electrical issues got me and caused me to buy a Corvette).

It's probably time to come up on spring and dampers both. But remember that one of your goals at the time with the setup was that it was comfortable on the street. Well, KW's are pretty comfy considering what you've now grown into wanting. Give you the higher rates you are after, and independent double adjustment too.... plus that nice lifetime warranty and the ability to cornerweight the car too.

 

[Whiskey11]

Where do you go next???? This is where I differ from most. Instead of throwing parts at the car because "this is better". I think it's critical to determine what the car does well, and what you'd like to see it do better. And please don't say "I want it to handle better", yeah I know... everyone says that and it means nothing because it's not in any way specific to actually moving in a direction. You like wanting to pay less taxes means nothing unless there is a way to make it happen.

I think in STX power is the least of your issues. I don't know why you set you Watts all the way down, or the bars all the way stiff, etc. I'm not saying it's wrong per se, just wanting to know how you ended up there, if it was testing or throwing stuff and seeing what stuck.

I think a real differential is key. I think as much rubber as you can get on there is key. I think getting weight out is key. Street tires work better on lighter cars. In the end while I firmly believe the car can trophy in STX, it's not likely to win it. So you also want to keep your eye on ESP rules as well, the car CAN win there. A customer of mine came from AZ with a mostly STX prepped car (and in fact my old personal Fays2 off my 2007 GT) and that car finished 2nd, and it's not got headers, a light flywheel, nothing actually SP beyond wheels and tires. Much like I had my 2011 and was competitive with (until the electrical issues got me and caused me to buy a Corvette).

It's probably time to come up on spring and dampers both. But remember that one of your goals at the time with the setup was that it was comfortable on the street. Well, KW's are pretty comfy considering what you've now grown into wanting. Give you the higher rates you are after, and independent double adjustment too.... plus that nice lifetime warranty and the ability to cornerweight the car too.

Well right now I see two glaring issues beyond overall grip in the car. The first is the lack of throttle oversteer without upsetting the chassis. I know why it wont and I'll get to that when I answer the second question and the other is that under braking the car is very plow prone. I expected this and I think it is more or less an issue of driver induced understeer at corner entry. The first is more important to me to solve as it shows up a lot more than the brake issue. I'm modifying my braking to be quick, hard and a little early to get the car down to a speed it will corner at but the fact that the car likes to plow at WOT rather than throttle oversteering is telling. That is a car set up issue that is my OWN fault.

During my last phone call with you Sam, during our chat about your swaybars you mentioned pushing people towards the 25mm bar so that there was enough stiffness to use the bottom hole in the Fays2. At the time I was a bit less experienced with roll centers and thought that meant to slam the rear roll center. Only now am I realizing the very large error of my ways. The bar setting up front was chosen due to the lack of spring rate. I knew that this would be an issue and I also knew that in order to save the tires with less camber I would need to keep the front stiff enough to keep it in a better portion of the camber curve. The rear bar was originally in the middle position and for half of this year that position seemed fine but as I started to push harder and harder I realized that the car was just a plowing monster so I made the thread about the Watts link position vs stiffening the rear bar here (http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88110) and opted to up the rear bar to the stiffest setting and that seemed fine for an event or two and now the push is back. I'm not sure if I'm just pushing too hard into the corners (likely for this set up anyway) or trying to find a way to get this car to be tossable around corners without throttle steering it all the time. I would LOVE to have it there as an option but I don't want it to be required to get the car to turn.

Next year I plan on moving the watts pivot bolt up to the third from bottom location and returning the rear bar to the middle position and going from there. The front bar will probably stay at full stiff unless I opt to give up my misgivings about camber bolts (or plunk down the change for the Ford ones!) or change out to proper camber plates or up the spring rates. Right now springs seem to be less of an issue than the issue of tires, camber, and diff so I am focusing there before getting excited about swapping to shiny coilovers. We'll just say the budget simply isnt there for much more than tires, camber, and if all goes well diff, next year.

I had a chat with those guys about their car at Nationals and they had mentioned that the car was basically an STX car with the ESP rear spoiler, front splitter and A6's and that really impressed me as I figured the 5.0 would be the dominant Mustang due to the unlimited tires and wheel allowances. They also mentioned that STX was more frustration than it was worth and that I should just go to ESP. Lets just say that right now, there is NO budget for tires that last 60 runs then are only marginally better than the best street tires that last a full season (in my case probably a season and a half). I like the concept of STX and I like the fact that I can drive to and from events on my tires and I like the fact that I can use those tires for a full season or more and still be competitive. I also really like how I am learning about car set up and car control in a grip limited class. To that end I would like to really max the car out within reason (both in DD comfort and in cost, so no $6000 pair of struts and $6000 pair of shocks ) and if it takes me two, three, four years, fine by me!

I fully agree with you Sam, I think the car can trophy and that winning is more of a pipe dream. My goal is to try my damnedest to get there though and who knows, maybe when I make the switch to ESP I will be more competitive. I feel like I have to try because no one else has and who knows, maybe it can get all the way there! Terry was the furthest anyone really tried to campaign one that was public enough about it potentially being serious and he stopped well short of max prep and switched to the more sane choice of ESP. I don't fault him for that, but it leaves a lot of questions on the table as he wasn't doing that poorly at the Texas events he attended with National level guys.

KW Variant 3's were originally on the docket and maybe I should consider putting them back on the docket. I had AST4150's with the Digressive Pistons and Vorshlag plates there and I would be happy with the fact they are singles for an all aluminum, upgradable to double adjustable, revalvable, etc set up and I figured that those would provide a tolerable ride with high spring rates while achieving multiple goals with proper damping, proper spring rates and a reduction in weight and allowed me room to grow to doubles. IIRC the Variant 3's don't come with plates right and use standard sized springs? Twin tube too right?

Thanks for the response! How much time do you think is left in this car for set up? Did you get a chance to watch the videos? Run 5 was the fastest and sadly doesn't show much in the way of lines.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The one I'm interested the most in is the effect of 20mm more tire on each corner (from 245 to 265)

All else equal, something like 3/4 second per minute. No idea what the compound change might add beyond that.


Norm

 

[Sam Strano]

Almost all the Championships I've won have been on twin-tube shocks. All have been on off the shelf valvings. I've had "custom" shocks, including AST's... I went back to Koni when I was in FS, and when I went to ESP, I stayed with Koni. I actually ran times that were faster than Madarash (and have a record of beating him too in the past with other cars). Unfortunately in 2011 we only raced twice. Both events at various times I was leading rounds. The first one, I had the car way too soft and just could not ultimately keep up as grip increased. The second time we were in a battle and Sunday the good old piece of crap cut out and lost about 200 hp. That was the last time I was getting screwed by it and sold the car for something else.

As for the setup. Well, you need to decide who you want to stick with. I'd hope it's me, since I've proven myself, oh... a few times. Also you have my bars, you use the Watts link I use, etc. But you also need to not do things like just slam the RC down just because. In fact I ran my RC all the way UP, not all the way down. If you haven't played with that why on earth would you spend stupid money on all tricky shocks?

 

[Whiskey11]

Almost all the Championships I've won have been on twin-tube shocks. All have been on off the shelf valvings. I've had "custom" shocks, including AST's... I went back to Koni when I was in FS, and when I went to ESP, I stayed with Koni. I actually ran times that were faster than Madarash (and have a record of beating him too in the past with other cars). Unfortunately in 2011 we only raced twice. Both events at various times I was leading rounds. The first one, I had the car way too soft and just could not ultimately keep up as grip increased. The second time we were in a battle and Sunday the good old piece of crap cut out and lost about 200 hp. That was the last time I was getting screwed by it and sold the car for something else.

As for the setup. Well, you need to decide who you want to stick with. I'd hope it's me, since I've proven myself, oh... a few times. Also you have my bars, you use the Watts link I use, etc. But you also need to not do things like just slam the RC down just because. In fact I ran my RC all the way UP, not all the way down. If you haven't played with that why on earth would you spend stupid money on all tricky shocks?

Right now, trick shocks and super stiff springs are an absolutely low priority. I'm only talking about them when trying to figure out the time impact they will have on the car. I feel, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the under tiring of the car and the "functional" rear diff are probably more pressing issues than upping spring rates. It's not that I feel the car has a spring issue that isn't workable. It's a hell of a lot better than stock ever was, could it be more, yeah it probably could but I think there are more pressing issues both in car set up and the tire issue. These star specs are about a 1/16th above the wear bars which tells me they have about half a season left on them. Next spring I will have them flipped on the rims so the virgin inner shoulders are on the outside and then when they are done I will replace them with the wider tires. The diff is kind of a when money allows thing. I'm not sure if it is more important than a set of lighter weight 18x9 wheels (TSW Nurburgrings at 19.7lbs is where I'm looking at) for performance but I think it and the tires will make the largest difference in times short of more seat time. Is that true?

Remember that the slamming of the rear roll center was a misunderstanding on MY part and every bit of tuning I've done since then with bars, shock/strut adjustments, PSI, has been around that point because everything I was doing was working well, for the most part, until I got used to the set up then started pushing it hard. Next year I plan on addressing that issue in the car set up and raise the rear roll center. I didn't this year because I thought the other changes were helping, and they did, to a point then it became an issue again and I simply ran out of season by the time (now) that I'm realizing it. I'm stupid! Next year I'll be more intelligent with it!

I guess the question I've been trying to ask (but apparently failing at) is between where I'm at, and where I'm planning on going, which mods are going to make the largest impact on finishing with quicker times and in what order should I be doing them in. I fully understand that the idiot behind the wheel is a HUGE part of it and that you, Sam, would be able to coax probably another full second and a half with the car as is, but I'm focusing on the car right now, making plans because I plan everything out, months in advance (it took me 3 months of planning before I called you the first time to order Koni's when they were out of stock and you convinced me to go with D-Specs) It took me 5 before I called and placed the remaining order with you for the rest of the stuff. You can see how far out I'm planning things and that is how I operate. I want to do things right the first, maybe the second time around when it comes to parts. I fully plan on addressing the driver mod next year TOO but it's a lot harder to quantify and qualify that aspect of the autocross equation!

Anyway, can you tell silly season has started in Nebraska a little too early?

 

[cito]

I have some thoughts that are probably a bit off, but might be of use.

1. If you are getting bigger tires, get the right sized wheels for them. If you really want to run STX and not ESP, then get the wheels you want now. I have never regretted buying a set of good, lightweight rims. Your tires will work better on a wider wheel and it will reduce unsprung weight. It is one of the easiest and cheapest ways to save weight. You can screw around a lot on brakes to save weight. Spend $800 to upgrade rotors, etc. Why not just get those TSW's you want for about 1100 bucks. Of course, there are cheaper alternatives, but I would support you getting the wheels you want.

2. Trade your car in on a 2007-2008 shelby or a 2011-2012 brembo package and run stock. You have all the parts you would need for stock, and you could use the money from selling the other parts you have on lightweight wheels and tires. Run the roadtire class. I have seen Brembo cars used in the sub-25k range lately. Buying in winter saves thousands (but might also impact your trade in value).

3. Run your car in ESP. Consult Sam on setup and parts. Get some wide wheels, buy used race tires, and have fun.

 

[Sam Strano]

I would never recommend he buy a new car for stock. Ever. In fact if you guys want to run stock I'd recommend a Shelby GT. Remember I've had both, and won in both. The 5.0 is about 10 times harder on tires, and harder to drive fast. It can go fast, and win, but clearly so can the "old" car which I said all along but when I switched the lemming thing took over and then when Daddio won it sealed it. Thankfully Peters showed the 4.6 Shelby or Shelby clone can do the job by winning this year... on Goodyear's no less.

In ESP trim the car is quite easy on tires. I get it if you don't want to be on race tires. BUT you have to decide just what you really want. Competitive? To what extent? And what are you willing to pay to play?

And again, it's pretty apparent that an ST prep car can do well in ESP when the driver is up to the job. I'm proof of it, having run against the current top of the heap in ESP (since I left in 2006) in my Camaro and winning. Then trying again with some success in a lighter prep, not even fully STX prepped except the wheels/tires in '11. In fact if I go back to ESP it will likely be with a 4.6, and not a 5.0.

 

[DILYSI Dave]

More....

1. Agreed on getting the widest wheel you can, as that's going to be important for making the street tires work.
2. If you're already under sprung, more grip is just going to make that worse. With lots of camber you can sort of make up for a lack of spring, or with lots of spring you can sort of make up for a lack of camber. Without addressing either of them, you're just going to really limit how well the front end can work IMO.
3. While pimp shocks are far from necessary, they can make higher spring rates more liveable. 1000# springs on the front of my civic with race valved koni sports was painful. The same springs with the motons could have been daily driven. It would be down on the list, but I'd still have it on the list.
4. Sam is right - power is the least of your worries. Weld the hood shut.
5. A car that throttle steers can be fun, but I much prefer a car that can be driven with precision. The civic was easy to place on course, easy to achieve whatever amount of yaw I wanted, etc. It was balls fast, but still very tossable. The camaro I've been driving this year OTOH is like wrestling a bull. It's big, rowdy, powerful, etc. It can hoon in a way that the civic could only dream of, but it's really quite frustrating to drive because you are never ahead of the car - driving it is a constant state of reacting to bad behavior. The way you describe your car it sounds like it is pushy until you floor it, so I expect that means that corner entry is a nightmare, and corner exit is a smoke fest. I want pretty much opposite reaction - I want the car to dance on corner entry, and plant the power on exit.

 

[Whiskey11]

The original goal was to prep out of STX, run it for a year, then switch to ESP if the budget for tires allowed. I think that is still a safe bet even if it means frustration in getting there. I'm not making the big bucks at my job so doing all of this at once isn't going to happen, ever, unless I run into a fairly substantial pile of cash somehow so this is going to be a slow build. That is part of the reason why I'm asking what parts will make the most difference in reducing my times.

I'm actually extremely surprised that the 5.0L isn't more dominant yet. I think Terry's ferociousness may actually get the 5.0L to the top. The whole grip limiting thing of ST just isn't there to hold them down. The fact that a 4.6L 3V managed to place 2nd gives me hope that once I get to the max STX prep, the switch to ESP will be pretty painless and I might actually be competitive. To be straightforward, it's simply not there in the budget any time soon which is why I am willing to play out STX until I can afford to switch! Eitherway the STX allowances for suspension are identical and the power differences wont be too difficult to implement.

More....

1. Agreed on getting the widest wheel you can, as that's going to be important for making the street tires work.
2. If you're already under sprung, more grip is just going to make that worse. With lots of camber you can sort of make up for a lack of spring, or with lots of spring you can sort of make up for a lack of camber. Without addressing either of them, you're just going to really limit how well the front end can work IMO.
3. While pimp shocks are far from necessary, they can make higher spring rates more liveable. 1000# springs on the front of my civic with race valved koni sports was painful. The same springs with the motons could have been daily driven. It would be down on the list, but I'd still have it on the list.
4. Sam is right - power is the least of your worries. Weld the hood shut.
5. A car that throttle steers can be fun, but I much prefer a car that can be driven with precision. The civic was easy to place on course, easy to achieve whatever amount of yaw I wanted, etc. It was balls fast, but still very tossable. The camaro I've been driving this year OTOH is like wrestling a bull. It's big, rowdy, powerful, etc. It can hoon in a way that the civic could only dream of, but it's really quite frustrating to drive because you are never ahead of the car - driving it is a constant state of reacting to bad behavior. The way you describe your car it sounds like it is pushy until you floor it, so I expect that means that corner entry is a nightmare, and corner exit is a smoke fest. I want pretty much opposite reaction - I want the car to dance on corner entry, and plant the power on exit.

1.) I'm aware that it will be better on a 9" for the class limit. It would be better wider but STX obviously doesn't allow that. When I switch to ESP the 18x9's would get the DD tires so it wouldn't be money wasted.

2.) I'm willing to work around this issue until I can afford to solve the issue correctly with coilovers. I wish the money was there to just wholesale max out the prep level but sadly, it isn't and that is really frustrating to me! Getting the right amount of camber for the springs I have should be a priority.

3.) I agree, which is part of the reason I'm hesitant to go to something like Ground Controls with stiffer spring rates. The car has to serve dual duty and while I'm willing to tolerate some discomfort for performance, I don't want to put this car on Grand Am spring rates with zero emphasis on maintaining the daily driver ability. That instantly means spending the coin on something a bit higher end like the KW's, AST's, etc.

4.) Yeah I didn't think it was an issue, just one possible place where time might be. This is an absolute last thing on my mind for upgrades.

5.) This car isn't tossable. It's understeer at entry and understeer at exit. The only way this car will oversteer is if I upset it somehow like a Scandinavian Flick or coming out of a slalom with the pedal mashed (same maneuver). This is a car set up issue that I've put it into and something that needs corrected for next year. My goal isn't to have a car that is a throttle controlled car like some CP cars are, my goal is to have a car that if a little yaw correction is necessary it's a matter of putting the foot to the floor to get that extra angle then let off enough to continue that new line. Right now more throttle = straight lines which is fine coming out of sweepers but doesn't do me any good when the car is still slow in a slalom and I go to add power and I get a straight line or worse too much angle because I applied it wrong through driver error. Part of that is just simple physics and the rest is my bonehead move in car set up! I hope to address that next year in car set up by raising the rear roll center 2 notches (to the third from bottom) and the rear sway to the middle position. If that doesn't fix it then I'll raise the RC up until it does.

I can't say thanks enough for the comments guys so keep them coming!

 

[Sam Strano]

There is a lot of hype flying around out there. I think the car win, that's why I tried. It pained me greatly to have to abandon my effort with the 5.0, but I can't own a car that won't run correctly. When I lose events because the car ceases to make power, melts converters, etc., it reflects badly because most folks think that's a setup issue, and I could not have that.... not in my line of work.

I also realized I proved that the car is competitive and when I was forced to leave due to a piece of crap car that Ford could not fix, that others would try and fill that void. And I hate that, so I have to keep reminding folks who actually had results, and won events, and who did so with less prep as well. I will continue to remind folks about this because it does bother me that those who yell the loudest get the most attention, where I think those with the proven results should. But I'm biased.

 

[Whiskey11]

There is a lot of hype flying around out there. I think the car win, that's why I tried. It pained me greatly to have to abandon my effort with the 5.0, but I can't own a car that won't run correctly. When I lose events because the car ceases to make power, melts converters, etc., it reflects badly because most folks think that's a setup issue, and I could not have that.... not in my line of work.

I also realized I proved that the car is competitive and when I was forced to leave due to a piece of crap car that Ford could not fix, that others would try and fill that void. And I hate that, so I have to keep reminding folks who actually had results, and won events, and who did so with less prep as well. I will continue to remind folks about this because it does bother me that those who yell the loudest get the most attention, where I think those with the proven results should. But I'm biased.

It's genuinely a shame that you had problems with your car and Ford wouldn't or couldn't take care of you. One of the many reasons I always recommend avoiding 1st model year cars or when they make large changes in the drivetrain.

A little birdy told me that your FRS/BRZ (I can't remember which you bought) might be getting prepped for Autocross duty instead of the Vette? I'm not sure I put much faith in that little birdy as he drives an Evo. That is always exciting! I do hope you return to the Pony Cars someday!