My STX 09 autocross future and questions

[Whiskey11]

You're trying to figure out how the SCCA thinks? Don't ever try to read a rule book, they change their minds like the wind

I think they make a lawyer write the rules so that only a lawyer can read the damn things and make heads or tails of what the rule actually means. Half the challenge of doing well in setting up a car for autocross is being able to sift through the legalese worded rules to find out if the mod you want to do is even legal or not.

 

[frank s]

One of the principal reasons the rules are the way they are is that competitors are so eager to weasel around them to gain an advantage. Take a leaky vessel (the Rules) and apply myriad patches (the Weasel-stoppers) over a period of (count 'em) fifty or so years, and you have a still-leaky pot that still manages to cook up a tasty stew for many and substantial nourishment for a few.

If I were really interested in autocross - "slaloms" back in the day - I think I'd spend the off-season trying to get the Rules into shape, as well as the vehicle. I like the thrills but not the drudgery, so unless someone local is offering a setup like SpeedVentures I'm not likely to be there.

BTW: any simple list of what I can change and still remain "Stock" with SCCA? Thank you.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

To run F Stock you can change....

Shocks - sky is the limit, must run stock springs.

Tires - anything goes.....for now.....

Wheels - must be no wider than stock and within 1/4" of stock offset

Anti roll bar - pick one, front or rear

Exhaust - catback only

And that's pretty much it.....I think.

 

[Whiskey11]

To run F Stock you can change....

Shocks - sky is the limit, must run stock springs.

Tires - anything goes.....for now.....

Wheels - must be no wider than stock and within 1/4" of stock offset

Anti roll bar - pick one, front or rear

Exhaust - catback only

And that's pretty much it.....I think.

OEM Ford Camber Bolts. That's kind of a big one!

 

[frank s]

Thank you for the replies.

Sway bars - pick one - to add, change, or eliminate?

The tires have probably the biggest potential, and the greatest cost. Local experts say that no matter what the rules are, tire manufacturers will make a tire that bends them and label it as if it were legal. A whole lot of "advancement" from the days when the stock tires were radials just emerging on the market and the fast tires were racing casings with very special re-cap material molded on.

Sky is the limit for shocks. I guess if it is too difficult to enforce a showroom stock rule you just eliminate it? Hard to believe the resources that go into winning a stock class.

I need a nap.

 

[Whiskey11]

Thank you for the replies.

Sway bars - pick one - to add, change, or eliminate?

The tires have probably the biggest potential, and the greatest cost. Local experts say that no matter what the rules are, tire manufacturers will make a tire that bends them and label it as if it were legal. A whole lot of "advancement" from the days when the stock tires were radials just emerging on the market and the fast tires were racing casings with very special re-cap material molded on.

Sky is the limit for shocks. I guess if it is too difficult to enforce a showroom stock rule you just eliminate it? Hard to believe the resources that go into winning a stock class.

I need a nap.

Yeah, you get to change one swaybar (changing includes removing) and it's supporting hardware. Either the front and its endlinks or the rear and its endlinks, but not both. If both are adjustable from the factory I think you can only adjust one of them outside the "stock" position. That impacts the Shelby GT more than any other Mustang.

Right now you have two competitive tire choices for stock and 2 or 3 for Road Tire, the Hoosier A6 and the new Goodyear R1-S (I think it's R1-S) and in Road Tire it's the Hankook RS-3, Bridgestone Potenza RE11 and Dunlop Direzza Z1 Sport Star Specs. Beyond that, right now anyway, the rest fall short, especially on our heavier cars.

The whole shock issue is one of the many issues people bring up with cost for the current Stock/RT classes. Because you are so limited on mods, the money that would have otherwise been spent on other modifications get spent on what mods you can do so you find people spending incredible amounts of money on trick shocks to gain an edge. Sam Strano has a good point about the off the shelf stuff, you can still win on them and a lot of good drivers still use them. I'm pretty sure he's still on the Koni's for off the shelf stuff but he's won on D-Specs before. If you plan on setting up a car for autocross, he's the man to talk to but don't be surprised if he is VERY blunt with you! I don't think it's personal, it's just his nature and there is a lot of good info there so listen!


Anyway, I'm really getting excited for next year. I hope that I can get at least the tires next year squared away and the car set up issues. Once that is done I think I can find a little more time. Whether or not that is true will be seen but it should be a step in the right direction!

I just hope there genuinely is 2.5 seconds of time or more between my piss poor driving (lets face it, a 2 year n00b can't be that good of a driver) and some car set up. I would be thrilled if that was true! I'm surprised Terry hasn't jumped in the conversation as he probably has more experience in the car in STX trim than any of us do. Between him and a few other of the veteran autocrossers lurking around here that opinions are strangely absent.

 

[stepqhen]

To run F Stock you can change....

Shocks - sky is the limit, must run stock springs.

Tires - anything goes.....for now.....

Wheels - must be no wider than stock and within 1/4" of stock offset

Anti roll bar - pick one, front or rear

Exhaust - catback only

And that's pretty much it.....I think.

To clarify the wheels, they must be stock size (diameter and width, and available with your trim level, for example a tack pack Mustang comes with 19x8.5s so it could not run 18x8.5 wheels)

 

[cito]

IMHO, if you are going to run ST, STX would be better than STU even with the tire limitations. At a purely raw level, the STU Mustang should be faster than the STX Mustang, but the competing cars are much faster in STU. 285's and the other legal changes are not going to be THAT much better in STU versus STX that you could run with STI's, M3's, and Evos in STU.

The PAX difference is about .02, which is huge in autocross. The PAX is just the PAX, but it does do a decent job of reflecting performance differences between classes.

60 second run in STX pax = 49.32
59 second run in STU pax = 49.619

You would have to run 58.64 in STU to match the STX PAX for 60 seconds.

Since cost is also a factor, I would stick with STX even if you could run in STU.

The other thing I would serious consider if I were you would be to purchase some cheap 18x10 rims, some used wide A6's and give ESP a try. You can get into used A6's for 125 bucks a piece (or even less). If you could find V710s, even better at least in terms of durability. You will not be as fast as you ultimately could be with fresh tires, but it will be close. Race tires will completely transform the experience. I miss running on race tires. The only reason I run road tire now is because I have been bring my son to events with me and, frankly, I am too lazy to switch out wheels at the end of a long day.

ESP is really the modified V8 mustang's autocross home (unless you ramp it up to CP).

Just my

 

[Whiskey11]

IMHO, if you are going to run ST, STX would be better than STU even with the tire limitations. At a purely raw level, the STU Mustang should be faster than the STX Mustang, but the competing cars are much faster in STU. 285's and the other legal changes are not going to be THAT much better in STU versus STX that you could run with STI's, M3's, and Evos in STU.

The PAX difference is about .02, which is huge in autocross. The PAX is just the PAX, but it does do a decent job of reflecting performance differences between classes.

60 second run in STX pax = 49.32
59 second run in STU pax = 49.619

You would have to run 58.64 in STU to match the STX PAX for 60 seconds.

Since cost is also a factor, I would stick with STX even if you could run in STU.

The other thing I would serious consider if I were you would be to purchase some cheap 18x10 rims, some used wide A6's and give ESP a try. You can get into used A6's for 125 bucks a piece (or even less). If you could find V710s, even better at least in terms of durability. You will not be as fast as you ultimately could be with fresh tires, but it will be close. Race tires will completely transform the experience. I miss running on race tires. The only reason I run road tire now is because I have been bring my son to events with me and, frankly, I am too lazy to switch out wheels at the end of a long day.

ESP is really the modified V8 mustang's autocross home (unless you ramp it up to CP).

Just my

Yeah the PAX factors really bring home the supposed differences in the two classes but the fact is that STX was actually faster than STU this year and this is the first year of "stability" for both classes since the reorganization of ST and the removal of the Civics from STX. Bryan Heitkotter placed 96th in the overall PAX (1st in STX) and I didn't even go down far enough to see the STU #1 guy's PAX. I anticipate both will change. I think both will get easier to PAX higher but STU will get easier than STX. I do have to say I am surprised that STU was slower than STX given the tire differences.

If Norm's graph is correct there is supposedly a half second difference in tires alone between the same car on 265 vs 285 tires. I would think that the heavier cars of STU should still be running faster times than STX given AWD, more tire, same allowances and all that. This year it just wasn't so. It would appear to my untrained eye anyway, that if the cars both classes are running the same times (and STX being faster) that the tire width in STU may actually help the Mustang be a better competitor regardless of the cars in the class if you know what I mean!

I understand that ESP is the place to play for Mustangs in this prep level and it would be fun to go head to head with our local competition in ESP on like tires but like you, I really don't want to get into swapping tires at events right now and a set of $500 used A6's that last a third as many runs before cording as a fresh set and are no where near competitive just doesn't sound appealing right now. Eventually the goal is to get to ESP, so don't mistake this as saying "No I want to stay in STX foreverevereverever!" I do want to get there but I want to play out STX until I can make the wholesale switch to ESP. I think maxing the car out for STX will still put me in a good place in ESP and the leap will be less drastic and be pretty much wheels/tires, power mods (yay?) and the "aero" mods.

Thanks for the responses!

 

[dontlifttoshift]

The only reason I run road tire now is because I have been bring my son to events with me and, frankly, I am too lazy to switch out wheels at the end of a long day.

This is why I prefer ST classes. I show up, I drive, I leave. I don't have extra wheels and tires to store or upkeep or all of the associated things that go with it.

I have ridden in cars and tasted the "purple crack", I get it, but if you move a class and go faster but are still slow relative to the cars in your class, what was the gain?

A competive ESP car is not an easy or cheap deal.

 

[Sam Strano]

This is why I prefer ST classes. I show up, I drive, I leave. I don't have extra wheels and tires to store or upkeep or all of the associated things that go with it.

I have ridden in cars and tasted the "purple crack", I get it, but if you move a class and go faster but are still slow relative to the cars in your class, what was the gain?

A competive ESP car is not an easy or cheap deal.

That last line isn't really true. In fact an ESP car is pretty easy to build, it might not be cheap, but then again neither is a top flight ST car. ALL the suspension mods, and the limited slip mods in ST are all the same. ESP, add headers, a light flywheel, and R-comps and beyond an ST car and you're there.

 

[Sam Strano]

Yeah the PAX factors really bring home the supposed differences in the two classes but the fact is that STX was actually faster than STU this year and this is the first year of "stability" for both classes since the reorganization of ST and the removal of the Civics from STX. Bryan Heitkotter placed 96th in the overall PAX (1st in STX) and I didn't even go down far enough to see the STU #1 guy's PAX. I anticipate both will change. I think both will get easier to PAX higher but STU will get easier than STX. I do have to say I am surprised that STU was slower than STX given the tire differences.

The car Heitkotter drove is FAR from fully prepped. In fact it's got a stock limited slip, and not a new or fresh one either.

PAX is quite accurate overall. Also remember there is a big difference when you run. 1st heat on Tu/Wed is very different than 1st heat Th/Friday. Better course conditions, etc.

Should STU be slower than STX? Nope, but it was . Should PAX change to show that? No. And PAX is not solely based on Nationals.

 

[Sam Strano]

I think they make a lawyer write the rules so that only a lawyer can read the damn things and make heads or tails of what the rule actually means. Half the challenge of doing well in setting up a car for autocross is being able to sift through the legalese worded rules to find out if the mod you want to do is even legal or not.

No lawyers involved. The rules are pretty much the way they are for one reason. Someone is looking for an advantage, tries something, then a rule has to change to cover that. Frankly I think it's nuts. If the rules were enforced in a tougher manner then there would be no need for all this loophole closing crap.

I don't like it, I have served (and currently do serve) on SCCA Advisory Committees. None of us like what we have to do because there is always someone looking to get a leg up.

 

[Whiskey11]

The car Heitkotter drove is FAR from fully prepped. In fact it's got a stock limited slip, and not a new or fresh one either.

PAX is quite accurate overall. Also remember there is a big difference when you run. 1st heat on Tu/Wed is very different than 1st heat Th/Friday. Better course conditions, etc.

Should STU be slower than STX? Nope, but it was . Should PAX change to show that? No. And PAX is not solely based on Nationals.

How far from fully prepped was Heitkotter's BMW that he co-drove? Just the diff?

STU and STX ran on the same day, STX ran heat 1 and STU heat 2 on opposite courses. Comparing times on the same courses might be a stretch being a day different but the total times should still be at least more reasonable than comparing those classes to classes that ran Thursday/Friday.

No lawyers involved. The rules are pretty much the way they are for one reason. Someone is looking for an advantage, tries something, then a rule has to change to cover that. Frankly I think it's nuts. If the rules were enforced in a tougher manner then there would be no need for all this loophole closing crap.

I don't like it, I have served (and currently do serve) on SCCA Advisory Committees. None of us like what we have to do because there is always someone looking to get a leg up.

I know lawyers aren't actually involved but sometimes I am left to wonder! It seems the only rule enforcement going on is done at the competitor level and it's up to competitors to protest modifications done to cars. With computers in cars now it is a lot tougher in some areas but the physical modifications are still there. This seems like the wrong way to do things but I think it is the only way things can work smoothly. I can't imagine trying to get my car teched at a National event taking 20+ minutes going over every modification on the car (assuming a competitor even lists them all) to ensure legality and some of it isn't enforceable with the use of computers in cars.

 

[Sam Strano]

Yeah, you get to change one swaybar (changing includes removing) and it's supporting hardware. Either the front and its endlinks or the rear and its endlinks, but not both. If both are adjustable from the factory I think you can only adjust one of them outside the "stock" position. That impacts the Shelby GT more than any other Mustang.

The whole shock issue is one of the many issues people bring up with cost for the current Stock/RT classes. Because you are so limited on mods, the money that would have otherwise been spent on other modifications get spent on what mods you can do so you find people spending incredible amounts of money on trick shocks to gain an edge. Sam Strano has a good point about the off the shelf stuff, you can still win on them and a lot of good drivers still use them. I'm pretty sure he's still on the Koni's for off the shelf stuff but he's won on D-Specs before. If you plan on setting up a car for autocross, he's the man to talk to but don't be surprised if he is VERY blunt with you! I don't think it's personal, it's just his nature and there is a lot of good info there so listen!

You are incorrect about the bars. If the car has an OEM adjustable bar on it, like the Shelby's do on the front it can stay and you can adjust it where you wish, even if you opt to do say a Strano Performance adjustable rear bar. But that's only if it's OEM. OEM gives you the adjustment you aren't adding it, so it's legal to use while still taking advantage of the change on the rear.

As for me and being blunt. I am. And it's not personal. What most folks don't seem to get is those that kill them with "sure, that's great" are all about just selling them something. I'm here to sell parts too, it's how I make my living. However, I have a conscience, and being that it's my business I can decide what I think is the right way of doing it. I spend my money on things just like everyone else, and I hate it when I do something stupid, maybe completely unknowingly, and someone else let me do it anyway. I'm just trying to help you guys not waste your time and money, that's all. I do it hundreds of times a day, sometimes answering the same thing over and over gets old. This was never as bad as when the line "I read it on the internet" thing started--so I might be more grumpy than I used to be. It's infuriating at times when folks read some little blurb completely lacking detail or information, and then take it as gospel. I then spend about half my time trying to debunk myths perpetuated online. Some great information out there, but much more crap. So I guess that makes me jaded, and I wish it wasn't the case. Just remember I'm that way for a damned good reason..... I'm not trying to screw you, but help you.

 

[Sam Strano]

How far from fully prepped was Heitkotter's BMW that he co-drove? Just the diff?

STU and STX ran on the same day, STX ran heat 1 and STU heat 2 on opposite courses. Comparing times on the same courses might be a stretch being a day different but the total times should still be at least more reasonable than comparing those classes to classes that ran Thursday/Friday.



I know lawyers aren't actually involved but sometimes I am left to wonder!

I am well aware of what is going on with that BMW, as I've been helping Charlie Davis (the car owner/co-driver) tune it over the phone. The springs were changed completely before leaving CA for NE. We messed with shocks a lot on the practice course. Much of what was being done to the shocks was trying to help kill some wheelspin. Well, here's the catch... that's not a shock's job to do... and if the car had a diff that worked well, then the suspension settings wouldn't need to be compromised. Does that shed some light on what's left for speed? Quite a bit.

As for which course which class ran, etc. West course sees a much bigger change in grip as rubber goes down than east. Those starting on East were at less of an overall disadvantage than those starting on West. And even 1 heat matters. that's something on the order of 150-200 runs put down between them.

 

[Whiskey11]

You are incorrect about the bars. If the car has an OEM adjustable bar on it, like the Shelby's do on the front it can stay and you can adjust it where you wish, even if you opt to do say a Strano Performance adjustable rear bar. But that's only if it's OEM. OEM gives you the adjustment you aren't adding it, so it's legal to use while still taking advantage of the change on the rear.

As for me and being blunt. I am. And it's not personal. What most folks don't seem to get is those that kill them with "sure, that's great" are all about just selling them something. I'm here to sell parts too, it's how I make my living. However, I have a conscience, and being that it's my business I can decide what I think is the right way of doing it. I spend my money on things just like everyone else, and I hate it when I do something stupid, maybe completely unknowingly, and someone else let me do it anyway. I'm just trying to help you guys not waste your time and money, that's all. I do it hundreds of times a day, sometimes answering the same thing over and over gets old. This was never as bad as when the line "I read it on the internet" thing started--so I might be more grumpy than I used to be. It's infuriating at times when folks read some little blurb completely lacking detail or information, and then take it as gospel. I then spend about half my time trying to debunk myths perpetuated online. Some great information out there, but much more crap. So I guess that makes me jaded, and I wish it wasn't the case. Just remember I'm that way for a damned good reason..... I'm not trying to screw you, but help you.

Thanks for the clarification, I assumed the adjustment was part of that modify section of the swaybar rule. I'm glad it's wrong as that would be frustrating for those SGT guys!

So I'm assuming that you feel that the most pressing issue in my current car setup is tires (and alignment), diff, then shocks/springs to kill the most time off that clock? Now I said car setup, the driver mod is always a work in progress.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

That last line isn't really true. In fact an ESP car is pretty easy to build, it might not be cheap, but then again neither is a top flight ST car. ALL the suspension mods, and the limited slip mods in ST are all the same. ESP, add headers, a light flywheel, and R-comps and beyond an ST car and you're there.

Point taken. But this talk of top flight cars, how many of us are top flight drivers? I've watched your videos and think you could probably drive a yugo in reverse to the podium.

Have you ever felt like you won in an underprepared car? I think it happens....maybe not to you but I think it happens. How many average drivers are in overprepared cars and go slow? That I know happens a lot.

 

[Sam Strano]

Point taken. But this talk of top flight cars, how many of us are top flight drivers? I've watched your videos and think you could probably drive a yugo in reverse to the podium.

Have you ever felt like you won in an underprepared car? I think it happens....maybe not to you but I think it happens. How many average drivers are in overprepared cars and go slow? That I know happens a lot.

Have I felt like I won in an underprepared car? Yes, though I learned that I don't want to do that normally. However, I'm not insane like many folks are, and a lot of people I race with think my stuff is somewhat underprepared (despite the fact I and others can win in them). "Prepared" is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. All the whizbang gizmo's in the world doesn't necessarily equal "well prepared", in fact it's much more common that folks screw themselves up trying to do too much.

Having said that, would I win SS in a stock Corvette? No. ESP or STX in a stock Mustang? No. My 2011 GT was "underprepared" because the big things left were money and time investements I did not want to make until I knew the car was fixed. It wasn't, so the car left. Could it have won in the state it was in had it run right? Yep, in fact I did win a number of National events in it, and ran quite competitively with Mark Madarash (we'd exchange the lead, etc.) when it ran well... Sadly that wasn't the case at the Pro Finale on Sunday in 2011, it screwed up and it was over.

 

[Sam Strano]

So I'm assuming that you feel that the most pressing issue in my current car setup is tires (and alignment), diff, then shocks/springs to kill the most time off that clock? Now I said car setup, the driver mod is always a work in progress.

So, about everything?

For all the typing Chris what I never seem to get from these posts is what exactly you want the car to do different. Yes, I think the differential is an issue in general, they are pretty poor stock. I am not a fan of the RC where you have it, and can't figure out why you haven't tried changing it and bar settings some before changing a hundred things. I do think you can do much better than D-specs, I think if you can tolerate some more spring on the street that would help make the car more nimble. I think the most rubber down possible would help. I think based on my experience that R-S3's might be a superior tire as to me they feel more like R-comps and the car is big and heavy and needs grip and response help from the tires.