S550 Mustang Suspension and Powertrain Discussion

[sheizasosay]

Ford .....if you are listening....HEADS UP DISPLAY!

 

[PLee]

We put together a new Fusion for Sema '12 using a guinea pig coilover system... in the rear it ended up just being an adjustable collar w/ a slightly shorter spring. While it worked in lowering the car, ride height changes were a bitch. I hated messing around with those. The side-bolt shock mount was actually kind of nice; made shock changes quick but you lose the in-trunk adjustability that we have now. Looks like rear camber changes will require an adjustable toe link and camber link, or for the street guys that are just going to slam the car, offset bushings. You can bet a bushing-swap for more track-worthy parts is going to be a job no one likes to do.

 

[Sky Render]

Hey here's some availability info for y'all- according to my friend at the Blue Oval, job 1 is either starting or has started, and we MIGHT see 2015's in July. No Shelbys or anything until mid-2015 at the soonest, first one is most likely a 700-ish HP Trinity-powered GT500.

I thought they weren't making any more GT500s and supercharged engines. The next SVT is supposed to be an N/A GT350 with a flat-plane V8.

When are people going to stop comparing this IRS to the absolute shit designed and comprimised IRS in the 03-40 Cobra? Deer Lord

THANK YOU.

Though, I must say, I don't like the complexity of the new suspension, both front and rear. One of the allures of the S197 (at least for me), was how easy it is to work on and maintain. Hell, the S197's front suspension has only 4 bushings, and the rear only has 8 (not counting the sway bars). And while everyone likes to hate on the live rear axle, nothing puts down power as good as a stick axle, period. And I believe quite a few people have already shown that a live-rear-axle car with McP front struts can be made to handle damn good.

Can you imagine how long it would take to replace all the bushings on the S550?

 

[TheViking]

Perhaps I missed it but don't see any comments over whether the new platform will handle a wider wheel, particularly up front. The front track width appears identical to the outgoing car at 62.3" yet the rear is 2" wider and the car is 1.5" wider overall. Maybe it's just the wheels they are using for measurement, or am I misunderstanding something else altogether?

When they mentioned the car was wider was hoping it would handle something like a 10" all around.

 

[Whiskey11]

Perhaps I missed it but don't see any comments over whether the new platform will handle a wider wheel, particularly up front. The front track width appears identical to the outgoing car at 62.3" yet the rear is 2" wider and the car is 1.5" wider overall. Maybe it's just the wheels they are using for measurement, or am I misunderstanding something else altogether?

When they mentioned the car was wider was hoping it would handle something like a 10" all around.

SVT Mule ran 295's up front so I wouldn't be too surprised if it isn't still pretty good if it hasn't changed any. I know there were some well based rumors about the wheels being 11" wide up front and 13" out back. Where is gmitch at and can he tell us yet?!

Also, Norm, where are you at? You made a fairly interesting (to me) comment over on Camaro 5 about the new front suspension needing a place of compliance with the dual ball joint suspension... any insight into what you are thinking? The dual ball joint setup screams bind during compression/droop + turning but I honestly don't know. That could kill off performance arms with solid bushings or near solid bushings if it does...

EDIT: The configuration on the Pontiac G8 looks to be pretty similar and this video kinda shows a bit of compliance when turning the wheel:

 

[GrabberBlue5.0]

Subbed

 

[05yellowgt]

They did mention shorter throws on that same line... I just wish that the damn thing was transmission mounted and not chassis mounted. I HOPE it's transmission mounted but knowing Ford, save as much money as possible so reuse as much as possible...

Auto is supposedly getting a lighter casing too and rev matching... Motortrend reported rev matching on the Manuals too but I don't think so.

The auto is getting a new roller bearing support for the output shaft. I believe this is a mod that some guys like Beefcake have done to their 6R80's during early development testing.

 

[csamsh]

I thought they weren't making any more GT500s and supercharged engines. The next SVT is supposed to be an N/A GT350 with a flat-plane V8.

The GT350 won't be ready for several years...in the meantime they need to do a "big power" model so they'll be using the trinity engine until they come up with the twin-turbo stuff.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Lots of good responses - should have started this thread here sooner!

The comment about doubling anti-squat, anti-lift and anti-dive force is pretty interesting... the last IRS car I can think of with high anti-squat values is a pretty popular drift car (240Z)... so I wonder how much we are going to get of each. I imagine I am going to be LOVING the Corner-Carvers.com discussion on the geometry.

Yea, lots of marketing talk but we won't know anything until a shop that understands suspension geometry gets their hands on it. I will ask our friends at Edmunds.com if they will do their normal "suspension walk-around" geometry mapping and examinations on a pre-production car, which always prove to be very helpful on new models.

Check out the suspension walkaround Edmunds did on the C7 Corvette Z51

As for me, I don't think it is any secret where I'm going. Next year is basically screwed up for me anyway with the Police Academy but 2015 I will be rocking a 2015 Mustang 2.3L, probably the Performance Package (14" Brembo's up front and Torsen diff out bacK? yesh please!) in whatever ST class they place us in. I'm HOPING for STU... 285's, around 3000lbs, mid 300's in HP/TRQ in ST trim should make for a decent competitor to the STi's and Evo's... I would think anyway. I'm willing to try! For sure expect a build thread on the car and expect to see it at Nationals in 2015 if I can get there! If it gets placed in STX, I'll run it there too as I think it might be a better candidate than any S197 is.

That sounds pretty dang cool. Even as much as I bag on the 2.3GTDI option vs the 5.0, I do think the turbo 4 it will have some potential advantages in autocrossing (lower weight? + BOOST!). If you get your hands on a turbo 4 early enough, and you will do a similar level of racing/prep as your STX car, we need to talk about you becoming a Vorshlag tester.

Terry, I would expect to see the SVT variant of the S550 chassis at the April anniversary. I think order banks may open up on that day too for fall delivery (which Ford has confirmed for the Convertible anyway).

If the SVT varient is either A) delayed significantly (which it seems like it will be, B) heavier (like the GT500 always is), or C) stupid expensive, we will not likely wait for that. Time to market is key and it looks like the S550 will need all new everything to develop on the suspension, from camber plates to shocks, bushings to arms, swaybars and wheels - the works. So we'll get the earliest GT we an order.

So Terry how come no 345/30/19 Hoosiers? 26.8"....

The ONLY good 19" street tire I could find is a 285/35/19 RE11.

Yes, the Hoosier A6 doesn't pose major restrictions in 19" vs 18", but every other tire we're looking at does. And even in the A6, there isn't a 335mm 19" (only a 325 and 345).

We have THREE sets of tires we will likely be running with on our 2015 GT... Hoosier A6 (for NASA TT2), Nitto NT-01 (100 treadwear for use at random autocross/HPDE events + street driving), and BFG Rivals (for 200 treadwear competitions). Well there is zero Rivals in 19" and nothing in Nitto, either. And in Hoosiers there is still a premium for the 19" tires. So it looks like we will forgo the Performance Package 15" 6-pot brakes and get a base GT with the 14" 4-pot Brembos instead.

Have to agree with Terry, above. Looks like late summer deliveries may be too late for 2014 events. May have to plan on what we've already got. My dealer out west here thinks he will have product for sale by the 50th anniversary, but me thinks this is wishful thinking. Also have to agree with many that changes bring new problems to solve, further pushing the race ready dates back to fall 2014.

This is the biggest problem I see with the chassis right now, delivery dates, and I hope they are holding back and will surprise us with Spring deliveries... but I suspect that is just wishful thinking.

P.S. Orange??? No, No, No. Just like Corvettes - All real Mustangs are Race Red; the rest are just mistakes.....

Agreed. That was an excellent book about the C5 development, btw.

I'm told 32.5k or so for a base GT.

That sounds witihin $1-2K of the outgoing 2013-14 GT, in case y'all were wondering...



My base 2013 Mustang GT (still for sale for all of you S550 haters!) stickered at $30,300, and with one option (3.55 gears, $395) and delivery ($795) it came to $31,490. So... that estimate sounds pretty good to me. I might just order another base red zero option 2015 GT, since so much of the PP stuff would end up in the trash for us.

I haven't seen anything on transmission improvements other then paddle shifters for the auto.

There are some details at the bottom of this this C&D article:

Power goes through what Ford says is a more durable version of the fifth-generation car’s six-speed Getrag manual or an improved, more efficient six-speed automatic with paddle shifters.

And of course when we get one we will run the suspension geometry numbers, lower it about 2" on proper dampers/springs/camber plates up front, and see if the handling goes to hell on a race track and autocross. We have already planned a series of tests, both on track and in autocross situations, on the OEM tires and R-compounds.

 

[Unreal]

Auto gets paddle shifters, rev matching downshifts, roller bearings, modified friction plates to operate at higher temps, redone case for strength. That is what I read. Sounds like some solid improvements to an already great transmission.

 

[05yellowgt]

Auto gets paddle shifters, rev matching downshifts, roller bearings, modified friction plates to operate at higher temps, redone case for strength. That is what I read. Sounds like some solid improvements to an already great transmission.

Saw the same thing.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Perhaps I missed it but don't see any comments over whether the new platform will handle a wider wheel, particularly up front. The front track width appears identical to the outgoing car at 62.3" yet the rear is 2" wider and the car is 1.5" wider overall. Maybe it's just the wheels they are using for measurement, or am I misunderstanding something else altogether?

When they mentioned the car was wider was hoping it would handle something like a 10" all around.

Well the old car could take 10" wheels on all 4 corners, and 11" wide wheels if you watched every millimeter (black car above is on 18x11 and 315/35/18). And even a 12" wide rear with some swaybar changes and a Watt Link (see below).

Technically we fit a 345/35/18 rear on the 2011 GT's fenders, but the axle moved too much under lateral loads

I'm hoping the S550's wider rear fenders will accommodate a 13" wide rear wheel and 12" wide fronts under stock fenders. And without a solid axle floating around back there we might have enough luck to get the 345's to fit this time without rubbing. But if it won't fit, we will make sure that it does...

Cheers,

 

[Department Of Boost]

I'm hoping the S550's wider rear fenders will accommodate a 13" wide rear wheel and 12" wide fronts under stock fenders. And without a solid axle floating around back there we might have enough luck to get the 345's to fit this time without rubbing. But if it won't fit, we will make sure that it does...

There are already SVT test mules running around with 11" front and 13" rear wheels.

A friend at a Ford supplier that has had S550's for months told me he put a tape measure on the rear wheel opening and he said it looks like there is about 16" to play with (depth). I don't think wide rubber is going to be an issue.

 

[csamsh]

Well the old car could take 10" wheels on all 4 corners, and 11" wide wheels if you watched every millimeter (black car above is on 18x11 and 315/35/18). And even a 12" wide rear with some swaybar changes and a Watt Link (see below).

Technically we fit a 345/35/18 rear on the 2011 GT's fenders, but the axle moved too much under lateral loads

I'm hoping the S550's wider rear fenders will accommodate a 13" wide rear wheel and 12" wide fronts under stock fenders. And without a solid axle floating around back there we might have enough luck to get the 345's to fit this time without rubbing. But if it won't fit, we will make sure that it does...

Cheers,

Well sign me up for a set of 18x12/18x13's...I'll need them ~March 2015

 

[Department Of Boost]

The GT350 won't be ready for several years...in the meantime they need to do a "big power" model so they'll be using the trinity engine until they come up with the twin-turbo stuff.

GT350 is a 2016 model.

As far as I know there are no plans in the works for a "big power"/FI SVT car. Just the 550hp VooDoo motor. If there are plans for a big power car they are being very, very tight lipped about it.

 

[BigRed06GT]

Subbed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sky Render]

The GT350 won't be ready for several years...in the meantime they need to do a "big power" model so they'll be using the trinity engine until they come up with the twin-turbo stuff.

I have heard that from precisely nowhere. Source?

 

[csamsh]

I have heard that from precisely nowhere. Source?

Sworn to secrecy, unfortunately.

Also- it's not a certainty. It's a likelihood.

 

[Sharad]

Great tech in here already. Nice thread!

So...I guess I'm ordering my S550 about a year from now! December deals...they'll have been out for a while, no markups(?) will at least be on job 2 if not 2016 MY, and I'll get it in Feb/March 2015, just in time for that year of autox.

That's how I'm looking at it too. I'm not going to line up and pay a premium to get one of the first ones. I'll drive my coyote for a while, let the mass hysteria over the 2015 subside, and then pick one up.

 

[Whiskey11]

If you get your hands on a turbo 4 early enough, and you will do a similar level of racing/prep as your STX car, we need to talk about you becoming a Vorshlag tester.

I have zero intentions of NOT doing a full build on it. What justice would I be doing if I didn't? Of course it will be 100% documented like my current build is... whether or not you can stand to read it is entirely up for debate!

That said, it isn't out of the realm of possibility that I'd be interested in becoming a Vorshlag tester, it's more or less whether or not I have anything to offer you guys. You could send me dozens of iterations of shock valving and I doubt I'd be able to give you anything more than a subjective opinion on it assuming I noticed a difference at all! I'm not exactly a professional car set-er-upper nor do I have a whole lot of experience autocrossing. I think your time and effort might be better spent with someone who has more experience than I do.