Broken Coyote Blocks

[Mystickeith50]

There's a new block for 2013, I wonder if that's being addressed. Considering the Cobra Jets will be using those blocks, I'd think they would want them as strong as possible.

THOSE BASTARDS!!!!!! lolol

 

[blackgt87]

Didn't 2012 Cobra Jet's have blowers and use the original coyote block?

 

[KenB]

There's a new block for 2013, I wonder if that's being addressed. Considering the Cobra Jets will be using those blocks, I'd think they would want them as strong as possible.

They are going to smaller head bolts

 

[beefcake]

I heard the cooling was going to be better on the new blocks

 

[Full_Tilt]

Its pretty difficult to break a sleeve on a closed deck block, but anything is possible with the right "tooner".

People make 400+ hp on open deck Honda blocks with a mere 1.6 liteters of displacement. It would be pretty sad if an engine with twice as many cylinders, over three times the displacement and a closed deck couldnt support well over 1000 hp.

My point is, Even if someone has broken a sleeve or two, Im going to take it as an isolated incident and most likely the result of incompetent tuners and/or other abuse.
To think otherwise would be to have very little confidence on Ford engineers.

 

[psfracer]

Then how do you explain an engine where the plugs, bearings, pistons were good but the cylinder bore had cracks? I have a real hard time believing that is a result of a "toon" I would think other parts of the engine would fail long before the cylinder wall would.

I think its a fact that the coyote block is not as strong as the 3V block.

 

[stkjock]

As I recall the sleeve didn't break, it was pushed out and became out of tolerance so to speak.

This is a 5.0 block, the red arrow shows where there is no supporting material that was on the 4.6 block.

 

[psfracer]

^^^ yes thats exactly where the cracks were.

 

[Full_Tilt]

Then how do you explain an engine where the plugs, bearings, pistons were good but the cylinder bore had cracks? I have a real hard time believing that is a result of a "toon" I would think other parts of the engine would fail long before the cylinder wall would.

I think its a fact that the coyote block is not as strong as the 3V block.

Well for one, I have never seen anything like you describe.
I would be genuinely surprised to see an in dept tear down of this engine where everything was fine except for the sleeves on an engine that was making less than 1000 hp.

But,
Too high of revs for the rod ratio (lateral piston load) and Vibrational issues from an improperly balanced rotating assembly/flywheel/pulley or from making a lot of power with an undampened crank pulley could both cause the sleeves to break at power levels below where they should break.
There are lots of possibilities Im sure, but thats what comes to mind.

I wouldnt be surprised if it was weaker than a 3V block but the idea that sleeves would fail at 700hp is absurd. There is something else to the story.
Either that or the engineers at Ford are literally retarded, and I highly doubt that.

As I recall the sleeve didn't break, it was pushed out and became out of tolerance so to speak.

This is a 5.0 block, the red arrow shows where there is no supporting material that was on the 4.6 block.

That doesnt sound like a broken sleeve at all, that sounds like cylinder taper...
Which with this thin coated sleeves I can imagine that it would look "cracked" if it wore through.

Thats just what happenes when you rev too high, piston slap is a bitch.

 

[stkjock]

From what I saw and heard the cyl wall did crack, it bowed out/warped.

 

[19COBRA93]

Didn't 2012 Cobra Jet's have blowers and use the original coyote block?

No, 2012 Cobra jet's were still the aluminum 5.4L. 2013 is the first Cobra Jet to get the supercharged 5.0L.

The only "production" supercharged 5.0L so far is the Shelby GT.

I'd really love to order a 2013 block in to compare, but my boss would probably shoot me. lol.

 

[psfracer]

From what I saw and heard the cyl wall did crack, it bowed out/warped.

Yep I actually saw it with my own eyes, the cylinder walls were cracked and were adjacent to the water passages on the other side. Damn I wish I had my camera. The rest of the cylinder wall was perfect.

 

[WytHorse]

I'd really love to order a 2013 block in to compare, but my boss would probably shoot me. lol.

dooo it. We would love to know... or I know at least I would

 

[19COBRA93]

dooo it. We would love to know... or I know at least I would

Already done. I'll have it on Wednesday.

 

[techcargt]

I am sure some of you have seen this, but thought I would show the link to those that haven't seen this, "Through custom tuning, twin turbo's and much more they were able to generat over 1047 hp.on a stock motor."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNtPpqeRNrA




So now the question is , how much to break a " stock" block ? When tuned right .


**please learn to embed video - http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3643

 

[jaguarking11]

The 4.6L 4v aluminum cobra block. Teskid sp? was said to be able to handle is excess of 2000whp when built right. However the rod to piston ratio on a 4.6L block is more favorable

The 4.6L 3v block was capable of handling well over 1500whp form what I have seen. The 3v block is stout as well as lighter than the old 4v aluminum block. However it does have oiling issues at high rpm. Didnt stop people from revving them to over 9k though.

the 5.0L block seems to have thinner sleeves. Witch does make boring out not a viable option. I bet there is more than meets the eye. By way of harmonics/bad tuning/machining too much.

You can pop a fully built block that is supposed to handle over 1000hp with less than 500hp if you send the cylinder pressure way up. Want to send cylinder pressure up? run lean, knock, ignition advance. sure way to kill power and send metal shards everywhere. I personaly would pay closer atention to egt's at that power level than lambda. High egt's = very high cylinder pressure.

I doubt there is a problem with the structure, but the more hp you make the smaller the window becomes to correct mistakes or even notice them. This marks the first time american manufacturers have built a production engine with enough meat on its bones for very high hp levels with this level of adjustability and this many cams. There are definitely teething issues.

as for comparing it to the 400hp 1.6L block from honda? The 1.6L needs to be filled or at least studded to handle it. And no matter what you do they are throw away engines, it wont last long @400hp crank. magic number is 20-23psi on pump gasoline, you need more than 23psi to make 400hp out of the 1.6L engine. Anything over that its going to live a short miserable life.

 

[Full_Tilt]

as for comparing it to the 400hp 1.6L block from honda? The 1.6L needs to be filled or at least studded to handle it. And no matter what you do they are throw away engines, it wont last long @400hp crank. magic number is 20-23psi on pump gasoline, you need more than 23psi to make 400hp out of the 1.6L engine. Anything over that its going to live a short miserable life.

While I agree with the rest of your post, thats this bit is not really true.
D-series will start breaking sleeves around 400whp but have been pushed further with just press in sleeves. No block filling or wet sleeves needed to in excess of 600 hp.
Not bad considering it is the weakest Honda block.
A B-series block can support much more before you have to sleeve it.


The point is, Hondas are a poor example of block stregth. They were built to be NA and lightweight and cheap, which is why you see an open deck aluminum block with iron sleeves and often times no girdle or substaial webbing.
Ford on the other hand is no stranger to forced induction and builds strong blocks. There is no way that they would be failing at lower rpm, bmep and hp/L than a Honda block.

Im thinking that people are seeing what happens to the thin coating when its exposed to detonation and piston slap and taking it as a "broken sleeve", when it is really just a damaged coating.
The same damage is there on an iron liner accept its not very visible to the eye, and only shows up when you put a micrometer in the cylinder and see how badly tapered it is.

Like I said. If I see evidence of a sleeves broken through into the water jacket on an engine that shows no other signs of detonation and was not operating at extremely high rpm or at high power levels, then I will consider the possibility that there is a manufacturing defect.

 

[jaguarking11]

There is no coating in the 5.0L engine, the 5.4 is coated, the company that does it or at least the license holder is here in long island ny.

The 5.0L has thinner sleeves. They are put in there during the casting process and the block is cast around them. At least it seems that way. Ford also uses very hard steel for liners. In all their engines. Break-in period is much longer on a ford than it is on most. Shows the cross hatching is still present after more than 20-30miles as with other manufacturers. Evidence by burning oil. So don't take it easy on the engine, warm it up and put it through its paces placing more and more load to seat those rings.

In any case, tuners have not fully figured these engines out just yet. I bet they were experimenting and unintentionally causing very high cylinder pressure. Gotta pay to play. VVT has tricks to it, and they are not always intuitive. Ask any of the bmw guys with vanos. They pay big bucks for small gains. Reason is because it takes allot of r&d to figure out how these engines respond to certain scenarios and then tweak them without pushing too hard.

As for the hp/L formula. Don't start with that, its hp/weight is all that matters. There are plenty of 4cylinder and v6 and I6 engines that weigh more or as much as 5.0L. Will they hold 800hp on pump gasoline? Will they make 600whp without dropping the block and rebuilding it? Apples to oranges.

 

[suprchrgd]

any new news on the hp ratings of the 11/12 vs the 13 blocks? I'm throwing around the idea of upgrading to a 5.0. Would i be silly to go with a 11/12 over the 13. The new ride will have f1a for boost and e85. I've been reading up in this sections for a little while, and came across this post. i know its a few months old...

 

[19COBRA93]

IMO, the differences are marginal, and I wouldn't sweat building either one of them. I think they can both take just about whatever power you plan to make. The weakest part of the blocks (IMO) exist in both blocks, so pick either one.