BRR-SCCA Autox - First time on hoosiers

[sholzer]

Finally got to run on the hoosiers I got during the overstock sale and it was a blast! I also did some suspension tuning that I've been putting off and got my sway bars dialed in to where I want them and set the bar preloads to zero as best I could.

This was my first time autox'ing this car with anything but the stock Pirelli PZeros and I finally realized first hand how hard the car is drive on those skinny, not so sticky tires. It makes me really hope that these cars get moved to STU (and maybe even allowed wider tires than 285mm) because I won't be able to afford the purple crack on a regular basis.

All week the weather was looking pretty grim for the day, 30 to 50 percent chance of rain that day. Although it was raining on the whole drive there (about 2 hours from my house), when we were about 30 minutes away, it let up and it didn't rain another drop until my fourth and final run (even then it was just a sprinkle). I was highly dreading the chance of showers and preventing me from using the hoosiers, but it al worked out in the end.

I ended up winning ESP by a good margin with a 59.25x, but I also won my first FTP! I know I left at least .5 seconds on the table too, especially since I coned away a 54.9xx, but still pulled off the fastest PAX time and 4th fastest overall.

Here's a video from my fastest clean run


Mods are:
gt500 axleback + resonator delete
Whiteline F+R sways and endlinks
Whiteline adjustable PHB
MM camber caster plates
Eibach pro-kit springs
Koni yellow shocks
18x9.5 tc105n
295/40/18 A6

 

[Roadracer350]

Sweet!

 

[06underme]

i didnt know you can fit 18" rims on brembo cars...

 

[Whiskey11]

i didnt know you can fit 18" rims on brembo cars...

There are a lot of 18's that fit the Brembo cars. The only exception are the 6 piston GT500 Brembos with the 15" rotors.

 

[sholzer]

There are a lot of 18's that fit the Brembo cars. The only exception are the 6 piston GT500 Brembos with the 15" rotors.

this. I actually have A LOT more clearance with my 18s than with the OEM 19s

 

[sholzer]

Picture fromt the event. Kind of surprised how flat it looks

 

[u00mem9]

Great plate!

 

[lost won]

Blue Ridge Winner!

Really nice times, Stephen! Looks like the Hoosiers really helped. Great driving helps too. Congratulations!

I just read the Version 3 Street Proposal and Appendix A car classes for 2014. Guess my FS days are numbered. I'll probably go ESP. Don't think the Mustang is gonna work on street tires...

Best Regards from the Left Coast.

John

San Diego Region #7 F Stock

 

[Whiskey11]

Really nice times, Stephen! Looks like the Hoosiers really helped. Great driving helps too. Congratulations!

I just read the Version 3 Street Proposal and Appendix A car classes for 2014. Guess my FS days are numbered. I'll probably go ESP. Don't think the Mustang is gonna work on street tires...

Best Regards from the Left Coast.

John

San Diego Region #7 F Stock

Depends on the Mustang I'd say. Granted, I'm in STX but I'm willing to bet a Shelby GT will be a much, much, much better F-Street car than a 5.0 would be.

I'm on 245 Star Specs and while I think the car could use more tire (when can't it?) I don't find it to be a mess that many assume it would be. The new 5.0L's simply have too much power for how little tire they are allowed in STX. The SGT can already get a ton of negative camber, is already lowered on stiffer springs, has adjustable front sway bar and you can add an adjustable rear bar too. Some 265's or I'm sure some 275's in whatever the flavor of the month street tire is and I'm willing to bet you would have just as much fun as you did on R-Comps. Maybe not as fast but it is a different type of fun.

The 5.0's are going to need some help though...

You could always try out STX and see what you think. Modern street tires are not the all seasons that these cars come shod with and are pretty good. The switch from ST to SP is not that big. Some power mods, wider wheels and A6's and you are pretty much there. You, of course, know this already!

 

[sholzer]

Really nice times, Stephen! Looks like the Hoosiers really helped. Great driving helps too. Congratulations!

I just read the Version 3 Street Proposal and Appendix A car classes for 2014. Guess my FS days are numbered. I'll probably go ESP. Don't think the Mustang is gonna work on street tires...

Best Regards from the Left Coast.

John

San Diego Region #7 F Stock

Thanks! The hoosiers definitely helped a ton; it's a completely different car with the right sized tires, well closer to the right size tires anyway.

I had my doubts about the car on STX when I was running the car on the stock pirelli's. I know proper R-S3s would be a world better than the pzeros, especially if the car gets moved to STU and can run 285s, but the car felt SO much easier to drive on the r-comps it's going to be hard to go back lol.

Depends on the Mustang I'd say. Granted, I'm in STX but I'm willing to bet a Shelby GT will be a much, much, much better F-Street car than a 5.0 would be.

I'm on 245 Star Specs and while I think the car could use more tire (when can't it?) I don't find it to be a mess that many assume it would be. The new 5.0L's simply have too much power for how little tire they are allowed in STX. The SGT can already get a ton of negative camber, is already lowered on stiffer springs, has adjustable front sway bar and you can add an adjustable rear bar too. Some 265's or I'm sure some 275's in whatever the flavor of the month street tire is and I'm willing to bet you would have just as much fun as you did on R-Comps. Maybe not as fast but it is a different type of fun.

The 5.0's are going to need some help though...

You could always try out STX and see what you think. Modern street tires are not the all seasons that these cars come shod with and are pretty good. The switch from ST to SP is not that big. Some power mods, wider wheels and A6's and you are pretty much there. You, of course, know this already!

STX is definitely worth a try and I'm excited to see how you do at spring nats, but like you said, I think the 05-09 have a much better shot than the new 5.0s in STX. The thought of adding more power to my car when I was running STX never even crossed my mind because I knew it would make the car much harder to drive than it already was.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

I hope all of you hoping the S197 gets moved to STU have written letters to the SEB asking for this! Seriously, if you have an SCCA member number PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go to this link and fill out the member letter submission: http://www.sebscca.com/

It takes 60 seconds. Just write something asking for the S197 Mustang to be moved to STU, and ask for a tire allowance. I've posted this a dozen times but they just haven't had enough letters... because this move hasn't happened yet. Here's some sample text, feel free to plagiarize!

I am an SCCA member that autocrosses an S197 Mustang GT (2005-2014) and would like to formally request that these cars be reclassed within the Street Touring category, and moved from STX and into STU. The modern V8 Mustang makes too much horsepower to work on a little 265mm street tires and relatively skinny 9" wheel, which is narrower than the factory tire and wheel that comes on many Mustang Boss 302 LS. With no hope of upgrading beyond the stock wheel widths these cars don't pick up much benefit when prepped for STX, but for STU they would at least gain some tire and wheel width, and hopefully some grip.

In addition, since these cars are many hundreds of pounds heavier (3500-3600 pounds) than the typical AWD Turbo EVO/STi (2900-3100) or E36 M3 (3000) that has always won STU at the National level, please give the heavy "pony cars" a slight tire allowance beyond the 285mm max for 2WD cars in STU. A 315mm tire fits these cars under the stock fenders, and there are several ST friendly tire makers that cover this size.

Thank you,
Joe Public, Member# XXXXXX

Please write those letters. If you've already sent a letter asking for this in the past DO IT AGAIN. If enough letters come in the rules makers will have to listen.

edit: just sent mine (again), SEB Letter Tracking Number #11530. Feel free to reference the same request number, #11530.

 

[Whiskey11]

I hope all of you hoping the S197 gets moved to STU have written letters to the SEB asking for this! Seriously, if you have an SCCA member number PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go to this link and fill out the member letter submission: http://www.sebscca.com/

It takes 60 seconds. Just write something asking for the S197 Mustang to be moved to STU, and ask for a tire allowance. I've posted this a dozen times but they just haven't had enough letters... because this move hasn't happened yet. Here's some sample text, feel free to plagiarize!

Please write those letters. If you've already sent a letter asking for this in the past DO IT AGAIN. If enough letters come in the rules makers will have to listen.

edit: just sent mine (again), SEB Letter Tracking Number #11530. Feel free to reference the same request number, #11530.

Terry, I've been chatting with a few of the SEB/STAC guys over on a different forum and it seems the holdup is more that the STAC is at a loss for what to do with the cars. They think moving the cars to STU they will be WORSE than keeping them in STX.

Right now the impression I got was that they are trying to find a solution to make the cars viable in STX without giving Jason Rhoades' 67 Camaro access to too much wider of wheels/tires. The last thing they discussed on the issue was making live axle cars similar to the current "2WD/RWD" allowances for tire and wheel widths but then Rhoades' Camaro cropped into the discussion.

For what it is worth they claim it's being discussed on every STAC call in some capacity and they ARE looking for solutions.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

I don't think Jason's Camaro will take much more tire. 275 is max in a stock rear wheel well and 265 is a pretty tight fit in front....especially on a 67-68.

 

[Whiskey11]

I don't think Jason's Camaro will take much more tire. 275 is max in a stock rear wheel well and 265 is a pretty tight fit in front....especially on a 67-68.

That was my impression as well but I can see how they feel it would open up potential abuses. If there was a tire company more open to "special sizes" I could see a low profile 285 in 17 or 16" wheel diameter and stupid stiff enough springs to limit body roll that they can be all poking out the fenders without issues. Unrealistic since there is no such company except specialty manufacturers (Hoosier comes to mind) that would make such a tire.

 

[csamsh]

I don't know what the holdup is- the Mustang is really not much good in STX, so why not try STU? If it's no good there either...no one has lost anything, but it would be more fun to drive with bigger tires. If they want to engineer some competitiveness in, make some SRA/heavy car allowances such as the ones Terry suggested. If they go too fast, cut back a bit. It's not like the SCCA won't amend the rules...

How hard is that? Too hard I guess...

 

[sholzer]

I wouldn't mind the car staying in STX but with allowances for wider wheels and 285mm tires. I think that'll be a better chance for these cars to be nationally competitive against the typical STX RX8/e36/toyobaru vs the Evos/STIs in STU

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Terry, I've been chatting with a few of the SEB/STAC guys over on a different forum and it seems the holdup is more that the STAC is at a loss for what to do with the cars. They think moving the cars to STU they will be WORSE than keeping them in STX.

Right now the impression I got was that they are trying to find a solution to make the cars viable in STX without giving Jason Rhoades' 67 Camaro access to too much wider of wheels/tires. The last thing they discussed on the issue was making live axle cars similar to the current "2WD/RWD" allowances for tire and wheel widths but then Rhoades' Camaro cropped into the discussion.

For what it is worth they claim it's being discussed on every STAC call in some capacity and they ARE looking for solutions.

While it is good that it is being "discussed" I wish these hand-wringing old ladies would JUST DO SOMETHING ALREADY. This car is hopeless in STX as the rules sit and in some cases you have to use NARROWER THAN STOCK wheels and tires. It has been mis-classed since 2005... how many years do we have to wait for them to get this popular car classed properly in ST??? 7? 8? 10 years? If this car had a Honda or Mazda badge on the front it would have been reclassed 3 times already.

I don't think Jason's Camaro will take much more tire. 275 is max in a stock rear wheel well and 265 is a pretty tight fit in front....especially on a 67-68.

Rhodes' Camaro is doomed in STX. It was abysmally slow at the previous outings it has had. Too many limitations and the technology is just too far gone. Love ya Jason, but he and I have had this duscussion many times. If his Tilting at Windmills build is holding up the reclassing of the S197 in ST then this is a real shame.

We saw TREMENDOUS gains just going from the STX 9" wheel and 265mm tire (above left - "always in oversteer") up to a 10" wheel and 275mm tire (above right, when we ran it in STU, which was allowed up until Jan 2012). The easiest fix for this chassis in STX or STU would be a minimum weight that triggers a larger tire option. Make it so that all 3300 or 3400 pound cars in the class gets a 10" wheel and up to a 295mm tire in STX (or an unlimited wheel and 315mm tire in STU), which is 3-400 or more pounds heavier than the 1967 Z/28 Jason built for STX is ever going to be (it weighs 3009 pounds now). Done.

Check out this suspension geometry - the best 1967 had to offer in a cheap solid axle RWD car! Jason is using -6° camber to achieve even this

They spend more time worrying about non-existent 1-off cars or "hero cars that will never be" than the ACTUAL CARS PEOPLE BRING OUT IN MASSIVE NUMBERS. The S197 Mustang, built in 50-100K numbers each year, has been a flop in STX. Many have tried, all have failed. I think some of the reluctance to try lately has been, well... because a lot of people saw how hopeless our car was when prepped in STX to a significant level, with 3 nationally competitive drivers trying to wheel it against the RX8, E36 and other STX cars. We couldn't even trophy locally in our car. Then we took the same car to ESP and in a handful of months won ESP-L and placed 4th in ESP open at Nats, with no real changes... that kind of tells you it was not classed well in STX.

How long do they need to wait to do something? This is a very popular car at track events, and semi-popular in FStock and ESP, but is doomed in ST because it is classed wrong. Come ON people... if they don't offer up something soon it will be doomed for 2014 as well. Time is ticking by while they meet, discuss, debate, and fret. DO SOMETHING!

 

[Whiskey11]

Weight was discussed at length as being the trigger but the logistics involved were touted as being unreasonably burdensome during Impound to weigh two of the largest classes nationally. I have a solution to that which I have yet to submit to the SEB/STAC that would limit weighing only to cars claiming to be above the threshold to bear the burden of proof rather than the whole class.

As for J-Rho's Z28, I think it is too early to claim it a failure. Right now he is very early on in development of the car and is working out bugs. His first event the car was "an oversteering mess", the last event he had brake lockup and ignition issues on top of shock damping issues. I was hoping he was going to be at Spring Nationals but he was called away due to work related issues as well as the recurring ignition problem.

Edit: Sorry OP for the hijack... =/

 

[sholzer]

Edit: Sorry OP for the hijack... =/

No problem lol I realized after I posted the thread in the first place, I was lacking some tech info other than "car sucks on stock pirellis, awesome on hoosiers" haha so this makes up for it! Always a good read too

 

[dontlifttoshift]

I don't know if that is the first time you said it or just the first time I read it, but the wheel and tire allowance in STX makes the most sense to me.

In reality, why not just open STX up, unlimited wheel width and 295 tires? I don't think the other cars can swallow more than a 275 anyways and then they can't bitch that the S197 guys got their own rules. Change STU to 295 as well, 265 and 285 are silly numbers anyways.